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* [bitcoin-dev] Barry Silbert segwit agreement
@ 2017-05-26 17:47 Jacob Eliosoff
  2017-05-26 18:48 ` Tom Zander
  2017-05-26 20:02 ` Matt Corallo
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Jacob Eliosoff @ 2017-05-26 17:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-dev

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Forgive me if this is a dumb question.  Suppose that rather than directly
activating segwit, the Silbert/NYC Segwit2MB proposal's lock-in just
triggered BIP141 signaling (plus later HF).  Would that avoid
incompatibility with existing BIP141 nodes, and get segwit activated
sooner?  Eg:

- Bit 4 (or bit 5 or whatever, now that BIP91 uses 4) signals support for
"segwit now, HF (TBD) at scheduled date (Nov 23?)"
- If bit 4 support reaches 80%, it locks in two things: the scheduled HF
(conditional on segwit), and *immediately* turning on bit 1 (BIP141 support)

I realize this would still leave problems like the aggressive HF schedule,
possible chain split at the HF date between Segwit2MB nodes and any
remaining BIP141 nodes, etc.  My focus here is how incompatibility with
existing nodes could be minimized.

(BIP91 could also be used if BIP141 support still fell short of 95%.  But
if Segwit2MB support reaches 80%, it seems likely that an additional 15%
will support BIP141-without-HF.)

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Barry Silbert segwit agreement
@ 2017-05-22 12:29 Daniele Pinna
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Daniele Pinna @ 2017-05-22 12:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: hampus.sjoberg, Bitcoin Dev

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I couldn't agree more. It would require however for the Devs to throw their
weight behind this with a lot of momentum. Spoonnet has been under
development for quite some time now. Counter offering SegWit plus Spoonnet
12-24 months later would be a very progressive stance that I think would
catch the interest of large swaths of the community. I'd be curious to hear
Johnson's opinion on this. How much more testing would his proposal require?

Daniele


----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 11:23:22 +0200
> From: Hampus Sj?berg <hampus.sjoberg@gmail.com>
> To: shaolinfry <shaolinfry@protonmail.ch>
> Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
>         <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Barry Silbert segwit agreement
> Message-ID:
>         <CAFMkqK_8CfaPmZgwMqGWpRujmmyGKXhZyxK_
> tQ6f1OMHKdEMJA@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I'm really happy to see people trying to cooperate to get SegWit activated.
> But I'm really unsure about the technicalities about Silbert's proposal.
>
> If we're going to do a hardfork, it makes most sense to assist Johnson in
> his spoonnet/forcenet proposals.
> Just doing a simple 2MB without fixing anything else is very uninteresting,
> and a hardfork without addressing replay protection seems really
> unprofessional to me.
> And proposing a hardfork in 4 months in the future, is completely insane.
> You cannot expect a 100% of all nodes in P2P network to upgrade in 4
> months.
>
> I think it's much better to activate BIP141 ASAP, and then hardfork to 2MB
> September 2018, or 2019 (together with forcenet/spoonnet).
> And if not, BIP148 is gaining momentum once again so that sounds much more
> interesting.
>
> Hampus
>
> 2017-05-22 8:12 GMT+02:00 shaolinfry via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>:
>
> > Someone sent me a copy of the Barry Silbert agreement, an agreement
> forged
> > between a select number of participants https://pastebin.com/VuCYteJh
> >
> > Participants agree to immediately activate Segwit, however, under a
> > different activation proposal. Since I have spent the last few months
> > researching various activation strategies of the current BIP141
> deployment,
> > as well as redeployment, I feel I am quite well placed to comment on the
> > technicalities.
> >
> > To be clear, the proposal as far as I can see does not activate BIP141,
> > but is a completely new deployment which would be incompatible with the
> > BIP141 deployment. I'm not sure how that can be considered "immediate"
> > activation. Surely immediate activation would just be for miners to start
> > signalling and segwit would be activated in 4-5 weeks. The proposal seems
> > to require a lower 80% threshold, I assume because they were unable to
> > convince 95% of the hashpower to go trigger activation.
> >
> > There are a few options to activating segwit now, the first being for 95%
> > of hashrate to signal. The second is for the community to deploy BIP148
> > UASF which will force miners to signal segwit. Being a UASF it is date
> > triggered. The third option is a redeployment of segwit on a new bit, but
> > requires waiting for the existing deployment to time out, because all the
> > p2p messages and service bits related to segwit must be replaced too
> (which
> > is what BIP149 does).
> >
> > A fourth option, first suggested to me by James Hilliard, was to make
> > BIP148 miner triggered (MASF) with a lower threshold, above 50%. I coded
> > this up a few weeks ago https://github.com/bitcoin/
> > bitcoin/compare/master...shaolinfry:segsignal but didnt get around to
> > posting to the ML yet. This effectively lowers the threshold from 95% to
> > 65% as coded, or could be upped to 80% or whatever was preferable.
> >
> > I think this removes the primary risk of BIP148 causing the creation of
> > two chains, and gives an improved chance to get segwit activated quickly
> > (assuming a majority of miners wish to go this route). But hash a primary
> > disadvantage of still leaving the activation in the hands of miners. If
> it
> > doesn't work out, then BIP149 can then be used as proposed, but it'll be
> > even safer because we'll have futher guaged support.
> >
> > References:
> >
> > SEGSIGNAL: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/master...
> > shaolinfry:segsignal
> > BIP148: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0148.mediawiki
> > BIP149: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0149.mediawiki
> >
> > I think the Barry Silbert agreement is very ill considered, and clearly
> > lacking peer review from the technical community. Suggestions of a HF in
> 4
> > months are completely unrealistic and without technical merits. But more
> > importantly, closed door agreements between selected participants is not
> > how to garner consensus to change a $30bn decentralized system. The
> purpose
> > of my email is to try and assist in the "immediate activation of segwit"
> > which only requires hashrate to participate; and to provide some
> techincal
> > input since I have done a great deal of research and development into the
> > topic.
> >
> > Given the history we've already passed the point where we should be
> > expecting miners to cooperate in lowering their own fee income with a
> > capacity increase; but we should be open to all reasonable options in the
> > interest in moving things forward in a safe and collaborative way.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> >
> >
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* [bitcoin-dev] Barry Silbert segwit agreement
@ 2017-05-22  6:12 shaolinfry
  2017-05-22  6:27 ` Peter Todd
  2017-05-22  9:23 ` Hampus Sjöberg
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: shaolinfry @ 2017-05-22  6:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion

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Someone sent me a copy of the Barry Silbert agreement, an agreement forged between a select number of participants https://pastebin.com/VuCYteJh

Participants agree to immediately activate Segwit, however, under a different activation proposal. Since I have spent the last few months researching various activation strategies of the current BIP141 deployment, as well as redeployment, I feel I am quite well placed to comment on the technicalities.

To be clear, the proposal as far as I can see does not activate BIP141, but is a completely new deployment which would be incompatible with the BIP141 deployment. I'm not sure how that can be considered "immediate" activation. Surely immediate activation would just be for miners to start signalling and segwit would be activated in 4-5 weeks. The proposal seems to require a lower 80% threshold, I assume because they were unable to convince 95% of the hashpower to go trigger activation.

There are a few options to activating segwit now, the first being for 95% of hashrate to signal. The second is for the community to deploy BIP148 UASF which will force miners to signal segwit. Being a UASF it is date triggered. The third option is a redeployment of segwit on a new bit, but requires waiting for the existing deployment to time out, because all the p2p messages and service bits related to segwit must be replaced too (which is what BIP149 does).

A fourth option, first suggested to me by James Hilliard, was to make BIP148 miner triggered (MASF) with a lower threshold, above 50%. I coded this up a few weeks ago https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/master...shaolinfry:segsignal but didnt get around to posting to the ML yet. This effectively lowers the threshold from 95% to 65% as coded, or could be upped to 80% or whatever was preferable.

I think this removes the primary risk of BIP148 causing the creation of two chains, and gives an improved chance to get segwit activated quickly (assuming a majority of miners wish to go this route). But hash a primary disadvantage of still leaving the activation in the hands of miners. If it doesn't work out, then BIP149 can then be used as proposed, but it'll be even safer because we'll have futher guaged support.

References:

SEGSIGNAL: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/master...shaolinfry:segsignal
BIP148: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0148.mediawiki
BIP149: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0149.mediawiki

I think the Barry Silbert agreement is very ill considered, and clearly lacking peer review from the technical community. Suggestions of a HF in 4 months are completely unrealistic and without technical merits. But more importantly, closed door agreements between selected participants is not how to garner consensus to change a $30bn decentralized system. The purpose of my email is to try and assist in the "immediate activation of segwit" which only requires hashrate to participate; and to provide some techincal input since I have done a great deal of research and development into the topic.

Given the history we've already passed the point where we should be expecting miners to cooperate in lowering their own fee income with a capacity increase; but we should be open to all reasonable options in the interest in moving things forward in a safe and collaborative way.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2017-05-28 23:28 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2017-05-26 17:47 [bitcoin-dev] Barry Silbert segwit agreement Jacob Eliosoff
2017-05-26 18:48 ` Tom Zander
2017-05-26 20:02 ` Matt Corallo
2017-05-26 20:10   ` Jacob Eliosoff
2017-05-26 21:30     ` James Hilliard
2017-05-26 22:12       ` Tom Zander
     [not found]         ` <CADvTj4qdr2yGYFEWA7oVmL-KkrchYb5aQBRY9w0OK4ZVopSTSA@mail.gmail.com>
2017-05-28 20:51           ` Tom Zander
2017-05-28 23:28             ` James Hilliard
2017-05-26 22:44       ` Matt Corallo
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2017-05-22 12:29 Daniele Pinna
2017-05-22  6:12 shaolinfry
2017-05-22  6:27 ` Peter Todd
2017-05-22  9:23 ` Hampus Sjöberg

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