From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BFC8AC04 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2017 04:10:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-wr0-f172.google.com (mail-wr0-f172.google.com [209.85.128.172]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE2CF10A for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2017 04:10:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wr0-f172.google.com with SMTP id z109so58452601wrb.1 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2017 21:10:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=04RKtuPmqMVBmlOanx8OjJ/ahwcsS3fvJ03CagKkPMc=; b=PcnDUvkfU44nYTyGAgFMeTusAH6N37s8UNQYbEPA3X6khHk+Cf4aS0Fxt3cqbGU4gB FQCg1QXVQ5ZzzjIMuxJH/PO/7Gu8bsITcllzN0uFm8wBdHHC5rxy/iWepUwOGbrKskGC uTUtRT1YhtwrAUEqMDA0hoIAWjJMICwiNrATU8AmxiG8TCF/EzAtWWfvqVfcihL5ZAq1 81SyMI3d79viFA+THbsn6KtXBR6/voAKAjTZlzMRjlZqhrTLhNUkVHW3dxuwvUA1qxCg mh+L5zgImZJo5l8IIMqzJUhezVZT/mR305eJZbYLiIFnfEuN1MZDWLL9ic008yhSNNxu /Jgw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=04RKtuPmqMVBmlOanx8OjJ/ahwcsS3fvJ03CagKkPMc=; b=YQqObxPk9vlIsvcI/UL2sRyXsJFbFQFj6qIKrlHUlSWkii15/f6eMSpG9pOZ0pENUK 21y3ETEJB2eSTKSQdMp8T2NL7JzzdiWOkdVHboDs5GszrTB1f+RS5Yj6TwTm/Qdu/18h 8F7SMUViZGBOwMEclVw+uVsFNxX4YfasLYllcFOmfjJTXTS7/3zKIxJHzQ37U0jF0UiT vpjDhLPsBqtVapbgm9k/gAeT1s0XqYzWFqzhO39Jp471dXVUzievD01XvJkLafxMM0bR 2praXlZW4Knrb2NACZUDQN6ygCUfhxRNMGGLYB3J8wNie69cUd5r9xZLe7/0/UPZqKNO 0xPw== X-Gm-Message-State: AN3rC/4eEjyeDPka5VqSOlUozI4Ts7x3DvfGfUxkvakI32tjETJl1gcC Gu2KxVTZBHgrGR1JB42yDF8/HxqUxEni X-Received: by 10.223.135.7 with SMTP id a7mr9622280wra.103.1492229427436; Fri, 14 Apr 2017 21:10:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.37.130 with HTTP; Fri, 14 Apr 2017 21:10:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Steven Pine Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 00:10:26 -0400 Message-ID: To: Gregory Maxwell Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1147c50ef2210e054d2cbcf6 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 04:28:23 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] I do not support the BIP 148 UASF X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 04:10:32 -0000 --001a1147c50ef2210e054d2cbcf6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I don't want to be rude and I will refer to your expertise, but segwit does have a 'time out' as defined in BIP 9 with the date of November 15th? Does core plan on just releasing another BIP with a new timeout hoping it will eventually get 95% census? As for the other point, we can play semantics but that's boring, I guess my meaning was every census change has gone through a core defined process (not counting the changes that occurred before there were BIPs and such), isn't that the case? If the currently discussed UASF goes through it would seem like the first time census occurred outside core's mailing list of pull requests, acks, and merge to master, I only note it as a thing of interest. To be clear, the fast and reckless part for you is the mechanism by which segwit could possibly be made active? Do you envision a means of segwit being made consensus that does not have 95% mining support? I appreciate your time and expertise, and to not take up anymore, back to lurking i go. On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 11:29 PM, Gregory Maxwell wrote: > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:01 AM, Steven Pine via bitcoin-dev > wrote: > > Regarding this last point I was under the impression that if Segwit did > not > > activate by November then core was going to move on, is that no longer > the > > Wow. Where did you get that idea? That is _absurd_ and untrue, and I > struggle a bit to even comprehend how someone could believe it. It > would continue until something clearly better came along or people > lost interest in it, why would it be anything else? > > > census change that was not rolled out and done by the core team? I only > > mention this because BIP148, if it goes ahead (and is successful), would > be > > the first time a consensus change occurs outside of the core developers > -- > > but again I am not an expert on the history of changes and could be > wrong, I > > There is a definitional issue there. There isn't much of "the core > team" there is a lot of amorphous public collaboration; everything > ends up being retroactively defined as the core team. With open > participation and hundreds of contributors and software running > everywhere in the network, its unlikely that someone would advance to > the point of being able to make a credible proposal without at some > point making some improvement to the project or without the help of > someone who has. > > In some sense you are coming very close to asking for a list of people > who have contributed to Bitcoin without contributing to Bitcoin. > > CLTV was a proposal by Peter Todd whom has done a number of other > things in core but AFAIR had no involvement in any prior soft-fork > (though perhaps I'm forgetting one?), though he subsequently > contributed to BIP66 (which activated before CLTV), and he contributed > mostly after-the fact review of segwit. CSV was mostly the work of > Mark Friedenbach whom I believe was not involved in any prior or > subsequent soft-fork (and whos total contributions to Bitcoin core > weigh in at 14 commits over 5 years). > > > My impression is that the community is ready for this and wants it, and > if > > that impression is correct it will go ahead. No one knows the future, and > > simply assuming it's better to be slow and methodical isn't especially > > I am not suggesting slow. I am suggesting that we not be outright > reckless. Some people are expecting changes which are effectively > orders of magnitude faster than changes in centralized systems > elsewhere which are far easier and safer to take quickly. > > (Some more comparatives here: > https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/65bch8/gregory_maxwell_i_do_not_ > support_the_bip_148_uasf/dg9xfam/ > ) > > > Technology is in someways the history of failure, > > By all means, take risks-- but you don't get to choose to make other > peoples things fail; you certainly don't get to demand their support, > though you could try to earn it if you care, by figuring out how to > meet their concerns. > -- Steven Pine (510) 517-7075 --001a1147c50ef2210e054d2cbcf6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't want to be rude and= I will refer to your expertise, but segwit does have a 'time out' = as defined in BIP 9 with the date of November 15th? Does core plan on just = releasing another BIP with a new timeout hoping it will eventually get 95% = census?=C2=A0

As for the other point, we can play semantics but that's boring= , I guess my meaning was every census change has gone through a core define= d process (not counting the changes that occurred before there were BIPs an= d such), isn't that the case? If the currently discussed UASF goes thro= ugh it would seem like the first time census occurred outside core's ma= iling list of pull requests, acks, and merge to master, I only note it as a= thing of interest.

To be clear, the fast and reckless part for you is the mechan= ism by which segwit could possibly be made active? Do you envision a means = of segwit being made consensus that does not have 95% mining support?
=

I appreciat= e your time and expertise, and to not take up anymore, back to lurking i go= .


=
On Fri, Apr 14,= 2017 at 11:29 PM, Gregory Maxwell <greg@xiph.org> wrote:
On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:01 A= M, Steven Pine via bitcoin-dev
<bitcoin-dev@li= sts.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Regarding this last point I was under the impression that if Segwit di= d not
> activate by November then core was going to move on, is that no longer= the

Wow. Where did you get that idea? That is _absurd_ and untrue, and I=
struggle a bit to even comprehend how someone could believe it.=C2=A0 It would continue until something clearly better came along or people
lost interest in it, why would it be anything else?

> census change that was not rolled out and done by the core team? I onl= y
> mention this because BIP148, if it goes ahead (and is successful), wou= ld be
> the first time a consensus change occurs outside of the core developer= s --
> but again I am not an expert on the history of changes and could be wr= ong, I

There is a definitional issue there. There isn't much of "t= he core
team" there is a lot of amorphous public collaboration; everything
ends up being retroactively defined as the core team.=C2=A0 With open
participation and hundreds of contributors and software running
everywhere in the network, its unlikely that someone would advance to
the point of being able to make a credible proposal without at some
point making some improvement to the project or without the help of
someone who has.

In some sense you are coming very close to asking for a list of people
who have contributed to Bitcoin without contributing to Bitcoin.

CLTV was a proposal by Peter Todd whom has done a number of other
things in core but AFAIR had no involvement in any prior soft-fork
(though perhaps I'm forgetting one?), though he subsequently
contributed to BIP66 (which activated before CLTV), and he contributed
mostly after-the fact review of segwit. CSV was mostly the work of
Mark Friedenbach whom I believe was not involved in any prior or
subsequent soft-fork (and whos total contributions to Bitcoin core
weigh in at 14 commits over 5 years).

> My impression is that the community is ready for this and wants it, an= d if
> that impression is correct it will go ahead. No one knows the future, = and
> simply assuming it's better to be slow and methodical isn't es= pecially

I am not suggesting slow. I am suggesting that we not be outright reckless. Some people are expecting changes which are effectively
orders of magnitude faster than changes in centralized systems
elsewhere which are far easier and safer to take quickly.

(Some more comparatives here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/65bch8/gregory_m= axwell_i_do_not_support_the_bip_148_uasf/dg9xfam/
)

> Technology is in someways the history of failure,

By all means, take risks-- but you don't get to choose to make o= ther
peoples things fail; you certainly don't get to demand their support, though you could try to earn it if you care, by figuring out how to
meet their concerns.



--
Steven Pine
(510) 517-7075
--001a1147c50ef2210e054d2cbcf6--