From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72DCF10B6 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2018 12:51:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-wm0-f51.google.com (mail-wm0-f51.google.com [74.125.82.51]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06973360 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2018 12:51:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wm0-f51.google.com with SMTP id g1so8267540wmg.2 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2018 04:51:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9/7XxFk1qoeinzkl5nuLtc0nRu8aFj6zKcLGeGl4xjQ=; b=kWATUFz24ZGKQEMHkW7zX7XGGPHThUk4bGVv/MQLhFJFk4BWVRnsNMP4jrdD/dd0tr Qj3/Abw2lRfHZaaVyTvx+ejjrw5XYp4Yz18Q9RRS/gIdyHqU2Xt5rIHgmKmVUYyGWzHM vGXFfhRdskwjDtvvNsYzLM0F6GH/g7SJboAG8AVVH2KxudANy5XKOAtuHZOJR0d4vJRd HSE+BrsoVv4IY5mjwdh01GyuKhX0RC8KnfNtO9+WpUf+HzdsQo45/9fJoRoV2/q5S4BC /afFNDKdHY84Cc4Edb/vmFdjMkpRL+9q1UhArJ4McTAi5n95LpKqnARhUr2JaFb1vuK7 R1Yg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9/7XxFk1qoeinzkl5nuLtc0nRu8aFj6zKcLGeGl4xjQ=; b=hOTW8/3EOxP1UVUvXpQIgikeqYrx9ngGjlCA+5SFuw2PL/OjLCMnzkA7yfRFqEmuN2 JaYT60cIuBli7dyV+SZdiC3xMiqAHKN9jeNaX98n9Osp0m9eSUxQ+2A9XWgyCMk2VvFM +tadzeUQQ4II0y83xVv9byrRPCLb6v/DtitS3iK7bK7giaqqTQ1BZ1nQi2LONiaP7yKw /saxDAFhPxmuf/gQW155+6pbIGzDECLJ57EH08ZrHC0DbRFknNpVIs0hLXrtGh55v3oW R4w/8DsJb6vWp17fFJ+Wf2x3DGuKm6z0VmoAjUTXam2OFQGGT00UC8Hi6E1az0PRoL9l 1ATg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytdmVNfABP5P9Gv8eQ7YF1/m7Heb1b9Ns9V8jPXxeVu1UC4Y0R7u qNggO9fsMA9Zgrt1x/N6yAcvH7Lg89n5ubxAm8M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x2245s+F7AE9goincpH5f++Au9v1pCnfc/Uk9FWNan3VwbdgKcc3dKCZ1HTiTy/s7pIuHTKP2RgjHseA82h6r5lU= X-Received: by 10.80.212.154 with SMTP id s26mr23518336edi.268.1516798306550; Wed, 24 Jan 2018 04:51:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.103 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2018 04:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.80.169.103 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2018 04:51:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20180123064419.GA1296@erisian.com.au> <20180123222229.GA3801@erisian.com.au> From: Natanael Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 13:51:45 +0100 Message-ID: To: Gregory Maxwell , Bitcoin Dev Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1af00c420a0d0563852003" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot: Privacy preserving switchable scripting X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 12:51:49 -0000 --94eb2c1af00c420a0d0563852003 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Den 23 jan. 2018 23:45 skrev "Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev" < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>: On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 10:22 PM, Anthony Towns wrote: > Hmm, at least people can choose not to reuse addresses currently -- > if everyone were using taproot and that didn't involve hashing the key, Can you show me a model of quantum computation that is conjectured to be able to solve the discrete log problem but which would take longer than fractions of a second to do so? Quantum computation has to occur within the coherence lifetime of the system. Quantum computers works like randomized black boxes, you run them in many cycles with a certain probability of getting the right answer. The trick to them is that they bias the probabilities of their qubits to read out the correct answer *more often than at random*, for many classes of problems. You (likely) won't get the correct answer immediately. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_computing Quoting Wikipedia: > An algorithm is composed of a fixed sequence of quantum logic gates and a problem is encoded by setting the initial values of the qubits, similar to how a classical computer works. The calculation usually ends with a measurement, collapsing the system of qubits into one of the 2 n {\displaystyle 2^{n}} 2^{n} pure states, where each qubit is zero or one, decomposing into a classical state. The outcome can therefore be at most n {\displaystyle n} n classical bits of information (or, if the algorithm did not end with a measurement, the result is an unobserved quantum state). Quantum algorithms are often probabilistic, in that they provide the correct solution only with a certain known probability. A non programmed QC is essentially an RNG driven by quantum effects. You just get random bits. A programmed one will need to run the and program over and over until you can derive the correct answer from one of its outputs. How fast this goes depends on the problem and the algorithm. Most people here have heard of Grover's algorithm, it would crack a symmetric 256 bit key in approximately 2^128 QC cycles - completely impractical. Shor's algorithm is the dangerous one for ECC since it cracks current keys at "practical" speeds. https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/598 - resource estimates, in terms of size of the QC. Does not address implementation speed. I can't seem to find specific details, but I remember having seen estimates of around 2^40 cycles in practical implementations for 256 bit ECC (this assumes use error correction schemes, QC machines with small some imperfections, and more). Unfortunately I can't find a source for this estimate. I've seen lower estimates too, but they seem entirely theoretical. Read-out time for QC:s is indeed insignificant, in terms of measuring the state of the qubits after a complete cycle. Programming time, time to prepared for readout, reset, reprogramming, etc, that will all take a little longer. In particular with more qubits involved, since they all need to be in superposition and be coherent at some point. Also, you still have to parse all the different outputs (on a classical computer) to find your answer among them. Very very optimistic cycle speeds are in the GHz range, and then that's still on the order of ~15 minutes for 2^40 cycles. Since we don't even have a proper general purpose QC yet, nor one with usable amounts of qubits, we don't even know if we can make them run at a cycle per second, or per minute... However if somebody *does* build a fast QC that's nearly ideal, then Bitcoin's typical use of ECC would be in immediate danger. The most optimistic QC plausible would indeed be able to crack keys in under a minute. But my own wild guess is that for the next few decades none will be faster than a runtime measured in weeks for cracking keys. --- Sidenote, I'm strongly in favor of implementing early support for the Fawkes scheme mentioned previously. We could even patch it on top of classical transactions - you can only break ECC with a known public key, so just commit to the signed transaction into the blockchain before publishing it. Then afterwards you publish the transaction itself, with a reference to the commitment. That transaction can then be assumed legit simply because there was no room to crack the key before the commitment, and the transaction matches the commitment. Never reuse keys, and you're safe against QC:s. Sidenote: There's a risk here with interception, insertion of a new commitment and getting the new transaction into the blockchain first. However, I would suggest a mining policy here were two known conflicting transactions with commitments are resolved such that the one with the oldest commitment wins. How to address detection of conflicting transactions with commitments older than confirmed transactions isn't obvious. Some of these may be fully intentional by the original owner, such as a regretted transaction. Another sidenote: HD wallets with hash based hardened derivation should also be safe in various circumstances, near completely safe in the case where they're defined such that knowing an individual private key, which is not the root key, is not enough to derive any other in your wallet. HD schemes that only prevent derivation of parent keypairs in the tree would require that you never use a key derived from another already used or published public key. --94eb2c1af00c420a0d0563852003 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Den 23 jan. 2018 23:45 skrev "Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev&qu= ot; <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>:
On Tu= e, Jan 23, 2018 at 10:22 PM, Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au> wrote:
> Hmm, at least people can choose not to reuse addresses currently -- > if everyone were using taproot and that didn't involve hashing the= key,

Can you show me a model of quantum computation that is conjectured to=
be able to solve the discrete log problem but which would take longer
than fractions of a second to do so? Quantum computation has to occur
within the coherence lifetime of the system.
=

Quantum computers works like = randomized black boxes, you run them in many cycles with a certain probabil= ity of getting the right answer.

The trick to them is that they bias the probabilities of their qu= bits to read out the correct answer *more often than at random*, for many c= lasses of problems. You (likely) won't get the correct answer immediate= ly.=C2=A0

Quoting Wikipedia:=C2=A0
<= br>
>=C2=A0An algorithm is composed of a fixed se= quence of quantum logic gates and a problem is encoded by setting the initi= al values of the qubits, similar to how a classical computer works. The cal= culation usually ends with a measurement, collapsing the system of qubits i= nto one of the 2 n {\displaystyle 2^{n}} 2^{n} pure states, where each qubi= t is zero or one, decomposing into a classical state. The outcome can there= fore be at most n {\displaystyle n} n classical bits of information (or, if= the algorithm did not end with a measurement, the result is an unobserved = quantum state). Quantum algorithms are often probabilistic, in that they pr= ovide the correct solution only with a certain known probability.

A non programmed QC is essentiall= y an RNG driven by quantum effects. You just get random bits.=C2=A0

A programmed one will need to r= un the and program over and over until you can derive the correct answer fr= om one of its outputs. How fast this goes depends on the problem and the al= gorithm.=C2=A0

Most peop= le here have heard of Grover's algorithm, it would crack a symmetric 25= 6 bit key in approximately 2^128 QC cycles - completely impractical. Shor&#= 39;s algorithm is the dangerous one for ECC since it cracks current keys at= "practical" speeds.=C2=A0

https://= eprint.iacr.org/2017/598=C2= =A0- resource estimates, in terms of size of the QC. Does not address imple= mentation speed.=C2=A0

I can't seem to= find specific details, but I remember having seen estimates of around 2^40= cycles in practical implementations for 256 bit ECC (this assumes use erro= r correction schemes, QC machines with small some imperfections, and more).= Unfortunately I can't find a source for this estimate. I've seen l= ower estimates too, but they seem entirely theoretical.=C2=A0

Read-out time for QC:s is indeed insi= gnificant, in terms of measuring the state of the qubits after a complete c= ycle.=C2=A0

Programming = time, time to prepared for readout, reset, reprogramming, etc, that will al= l take a little longer. In particular with more qubits involved, since they= all need to be in superposition and be coherent at some point. Also, you s= till have to parse all the different outputs (on a classical computer) to f= ind your answer among them.=C2=A0
Very very optimist= ic cycle speeds are in the GHz range, and then that's still on the orde= r of ~15 minutes for 2^40 cycles. Since we don't even have a proper gen= eral purpose QC yet, nor one with usable amounts of qubits, we don't ev= en know if we can make them run at a cycle per second, or per minute...=C2= =A0

However if somebody = *does* build a fast QC that's nearly ideal, then Bitcoin's typical = use of ECC would be in immediate danger. The most optimistic QC plausible w= ould indeed be able to crack keys in under a minute. But my own wild guess = is that for the next few decades none will be faster than a runtime measure= d in weeks for cracking keys.=C2=A0

---

Sidenote= , I'm strongly in favor of implementing early support for the Fawkes sc= heme mentioned previously.=C2=A0

We could even patch it on top of classical transactions - you can= only break ECC with a known public key, so just commit to the signed trans= action into the blockchain before publishing it. Then afterwards you publis= h the transaction itself, with a reference to the commitment. That transact= ion can then be assumed legit simply because there was no room to crack the= key before the commitment, and the transaction matches the commitment.=C2= =A0

Never reuse keys, and you're safe against QC:s.=C2= =A0

Sidenote:= There's a risk here with interception, insertion of a new commitment a= nd getting the new transaction into the blockchain first. However, I would = suggest a mining policy here were two known conflicting transactions with c= ommitments are resolved such that the one with the oldest commitment wins. = How to address detection of conflicting transactions with commitments older= than confirmed transactions isn't obvious. Some of these may be fully = intentional by the original owner, such as a regretted transaction.

Another sidenote: HD wallets wi= th hash based hardened derivation should also be safe in various circumstan= ces, near completely safe in the case where they're defined such that k= nowing an individual private key, which is not the root key,=C2=A0 is not e= nough to derive any other in your wallet.=C2=A0
HD s= chemes that only prevent derivation of parent keypairs in the tree would re= quire that you never use a key derived from another already used or publish= ed public key.=C2=A0
--94eb2c1af00c420a0d0563852003--