public inbox for bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Andrew Johnson <andrew.johnson83@gmail.com>
To: alp alp <alp.bitcoin@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] A Modified Version of Luke-jr's Block Size BIP
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 13:56:19 -0600	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAAy62_L7G6aY0hpw-wc6Z+2DWiFUNOX003iTWbbvsZywLV+orA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAMBsKS_JKNJFLB_ao8-dcWgWB8o5bGLbNPrPtvSmobrryZVEmQ@mail.gmail.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4332 bytes --]

If a small dissenting minority can block all forward progress then bitcoin
is no longer interesting.  What an incredibly simple attack vector...

No need to break any cryptography, find a bug to exploit, build tens of
millions of dollars in mining hardware, spend lots of bitcoin on fees to
flood the network, or be clever or expend any valuable resources in any
way, shape, or form.

Just convince(or pay, if you do want to expend some resources) a few
people(or make up a few online personas) to staunchly refuse to accept
anything at all and the entire system is stuck in 2013(when we first
started widely discussing a blocksize increase seriously).

Is that really the bitcoin that you want to be a part of?

When the 1MB cap was implemented it was stated specifically that we could
increase it when we needed it.  The white paper even talks about scaling to
huge capacity.  Not sure where you got the idea that we all agreed to stay
at 1MB forever, I certainly didn't.  It was never stated or implied that we
could change the coin cap later(please cite if I'm mistaken).


On Feb 8, 2017 12:16 PM, "alp alp" <alp.bitcoin@gmail.com> wrote:

Doing nothing is the rules we all agreed to.  If those rules are to be
changed,nearly everyone will need to consent.  The same rule applies to the
cap, we all agreed to 21m, and if someone wants to change that, nearly
everyone would need to agree.


On Feb 8, 2017 10:28 AM, "Andrew Johnson" <andrew.johnson83@gmail.com>
wrote:

It is when you're talking about making a choice and 6.3x more people prefer
something else. Doing nothing is a choice as well.

Put another way, if 10% supported increasing the 21M coin cap and 63% were
against, would you seriously consider doing it?

On Feb 8, 2017 9:57 AM, "alp alp" <alp.bitcoin@gmail.com> wrote:

> 10% is not a tiny minority.
>
> On Feb 8, 2017 9:51 AM, "Andrew Johnson" <andrew.johnson83@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> You're never going to reach 100% agreement, and stifling the network
>> literally forever to please a tiny minority is daft.
>>
>> On Feb 8, 2017 8:52 AM, "alp alp via bitcoin-dev" <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>> 10% say literally never.  That seems like a significant
>> disenfranchisement and lack of consensus.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 2:25 PM, t. khan via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Luke Dashjr <luke@dashjr.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, February 06, 2017 6:19:43 PM you wrote:
>>>> > >My BIP draft didn't make progress because the community opposes any
>>>> block
>>>> > >size increase hardfork ever.
>>>> >
>>>> > Luke, how do you know the community opposes that? Specifically, how
>>>> did you
>>>> > come to this conclusion?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.strawpoll.me/12228388/r
>>>
>>>
>>> That poll shows 63% of votes want a larger than 1 MB block by this
>>> summer. How do you go from that to "the community opposes any block
>>> increase ever"? It shows the exact opposite of that.
>>>
>>>
>>>> > >Your version doesn't address the current block size
>>>> > >issues (ie, the blocks being too large).
>>>> >
>>>> > Why do you think blocks are "too large"? Please cite some evidence.
>>>> I've
>>>> > asked this before and you ignored it, but an answer would be helpful
>>>> to the
>>>> > discussion.
>>>>
>>>> Full node count is far below the safe minimum of 85% of economic
>>>> activity.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is this causing a problem now? If so, what?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Typically reasons given for people not using full nodes themselves come
>>>> down
>>>> to the high resource requirements caused by the block size.
>>>
>>>
>>> The reason people stop running nodes is because there's no incentive to
>>> counteract the resource costs. Attempting to solve this by making blocks
>>> *smaller* is like curing a disease by killing the patient. (Incentivizing
>>> full node operation would fix that problem.)
>>>
>>> - t.k.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
>>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 8759 bytes --]

  parent reply	other threads:[~2017-02-08 19:56 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 16+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2017-02-05 21:50 [bitcoin-dev] A Modified Version of Luke-jr's Block Size BIP Andrew C
2017-02-05 23:02 ` Luke Dashjr
2017-02-05 23:53   ` Andrew C
     [not found]     ` <C5621135-FBC8-44E7-9EC0-AFDEEBB6031E@thomaslerin.io>
2017-02-06 21:00       ` Andrew C
2017-02-06 18:19   ` t. khan
     [not found]     ` <201702061953.40774.luke@dashjr.org>
2017-02-06 20:25       ` t. khan
2017-02-08 14:44         ` alp alp
2017-02-08 15:51           ` Andrew Johnson
2017-02-08 15:57             ` alp alp
2017-02-08 16:28               ` Andrew Johnson
2017-02-08 18:16                 ` alp alp
2017-02-08 19:53                   ` t. khan
2017-02-08 19:56                   ` Andrew Johnson [this message]
2017-02-08 20:13                     ` alp alp
2017-02-10 10:33                       ` Btc Drak
2017-02-10  4:10 Ryan J Martin

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=CAAy62_L7G6aY0hpw-wc6Z+2DWiFUNOX003iTWbbvsZywLV+orA@mail.gmail.com \
    --to=andrew.johnson83@gmail.com \
    --cc=alp.bitcoin@gmail.com \
    --cc=bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox