From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [140.211.166.136]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C997EC0012 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:12:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B754960E43 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:12:21 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uFoKegHvHxpi for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:12:20 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: delayed 00:06:24 by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mta31.mta.hdems.com (mta31.mta.hdems.com [52.198.247.254]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48A80600CA for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:12:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mo.hdems.com (unknown [10.5.20.241]) by mta31.mta.hdems.com ('HDEMS') with ESMTPSA id 4JMxFs5ghJz1XNwF9 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:05:53 +0000 (UTC) X-HDEMS-MO-TENANT: garage.co.jp Received: from mail-ed1-f71.google.com (mail-ed1-f71.google.com. [209.85.208.71]) by gwsmtp.prod.mo.hdems.com with ESMTPS id gwsmtpd-trans-0a788ce5-bede-4f60-a3c3-83beded5ad63 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:05:48 +0000 Received: by mail-ed1-f71.google.com with SMTP id dz8-20020a0564021d4800b003f897935eb3so10912647edb.12 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 04:05:47 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NesGtm97+m50SB5HOYDABMDMGZ3kz8D+TjIIXE7PK+w=; b=qpsBheFaVaoJSWHf8cWeClY4hSSKBhqJrEotCXExk3jCRZpnvOeDS5OwrzBjfSOLsz f2VvSBX8M2qKlqMIHaY7THKml15m0fH+C/cLwty8aqBXhOGWWV3SswA+vAcCkMDDqolq 8zzmctb8mmcL/9i1ixYRHdDlkkkqBhX18CMI8730mcZYE1aUIha0QGBavG3HhHbt+ZQ0 1/fb7+UFtRnJMQruEC7E8RiRU2YjJO87OCNjY6pxgrKEpznKDoJlpq2Pc+GQHgEGsDGB 4LssPn3UHJvuH7PexMWXN4XUV4i1K+8UntLzISHxxCiyJoS9k30r+mugGodAj9xiz4nx 2W4g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53285k2/uc4Xnjk0esm/Pn9PrwZbcCJR6032AuKxe6a8AoGqb//X PMQt7Ygdl2H4t6+ke5FmXgoJTYtuHva+hcfbKaDdoTj2cFEt48lkz052YAJkTuU3o1X3TWSqBBl e+pOUwHq9/qxKav9INfJUfeHIxC88CXks6F3EPnZWQNSbSSDoxbqB2I4I/obA7Kk+yJqPuP1QVA fUVz07DRbIM5ZfdDO8ajgDTYj4hcupFegeNcL0bXvvHvTO4zF8dyDcihQjOZyAwqJjneF61qZqG 1aMU5XNrANPagMAYmYsYJaL4IKzPtMqlgdWTLh7APe805Rc7Lepz9vumuejVYfEp7bnHiKvbXFG U3v3H/7IMLwZzW1e7+f5IFc7egE= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:3d88:: with SMTP id he8mr14032277ejc.707.1640606747225; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 04:05:47 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx4wFl1bClTErUa0aKF+zztmyXo1DMPXNTf6E/5MlsklQ+WlUxPipehnm2yJpAYmsWrR9/BQ1ls22HDW5TcRqo= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:3d88:: with SMTP id he8mr14032250ejc.707.1640606746927; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 04:05:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <86b6f138a9dbd2cd1dc4c9166199b319@yancy.lol> In-Reply-To: <86b6f138a9dbd2cd1dc4c9166199b319@yancy.lol> From: Thibaut Le Guilly Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 21:05:36 +0900 Message-ID: To: email@yancy.lol, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005e004405d41f86ae" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:18:10 +0000 Cc: Prayank Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Bitcoin Advent Calendar] Derivatives and Options X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:12:21 -0000 --0000000000005e004405d41f86ae Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Did someone say rust-dlc? Just kidding, but wanted to mention that indeed it's under active development, supports multi oracle contracts and many other cool things (pretty much everything you can find in the dlc specs)! Otherwise nice article Jeremy. Maybe you should drop by our monthly DLC spec meeting one of these days. I'm sure everybody would be happy to hear how we could improve the Bitcoin derivatives ecosystem with CTV and what infrastructures or code could be reused from DLCs. Cheers, Thibaut On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 7:39 AM yancy via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Prayank, > > I believe the p2pderivatives DLC application is still under active > development here (single oracle): > https://github.com/p2pderivatives/rust-dlc > > I was once involved in the project in a galaxy far far away but haven't > kept up with the project. Also, I'm a few days behind in the Bitcoin > Advent Calendar :) > > Cheers, > -Yancy > > > On 2021-12-24 17:42, Prayank via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > Hi Jeremy, > > > >> Wheres the info come from? Well, multiple places. We could get it > > from a third party (maybe using an attestation chain of some sort?), > > or there are certain ways it could be self-referential (like for > > powswap [1]). > > > >> Now let=E2=80=99s define a threshold oracle =E2=80=93 we wouldn=E2=80= =99t want to > > trust just one lousy oracle, so let=E2=80=99s trust M out of N of them! > > > > Similar approach is used in discreet log contracts for multi oracles. > > There is even a project for P2P derivatives but it was not used for > > any real trades on mainnet or further developed. What difference would > > OP_CTV make in this project if its implemented in Bitcoin? > > > > https://github.com/p2pderivatives/p2pderivatives-client > > > > https://github.com/p2pderivatives/p2pderivatives-server > > > > https://github.com/p2pderivatives/p2pderivatives-oracle > > > >> Does this NEED CTV? > > > > No, not in particular. Most of this stuff could be done with online > > signer server federation between you and counterparty. CTV makes some > > stuff nicer though, and opens up new possibilities for opening these > > contracts unilaterally. > > > > Nicer? How would unilateral derivatives work because my understanding > > was that you always need a peer to take the other side of the trade. I > > wish we could discuss this topic in a trading community with some > > Bitcoiners that even had some programming knowledge. > > > > Derivatives are interesting and less explored or used in Bitcoin > > projects. They could be useful in solving lot of problems. > > > > -- > > > > Prayank > > > > A3B1 E430 2298 178F > > > > > > Links: > > ------ > > [1] https://powswap.com > > _______________________________________________ > > bitcoin-dev mailing list > > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --0000000000005e004405d41f86ae Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

Did someone say rust-dlc? Just = kidding, but wanted to mention that indeed it's under active developmen= t, supports multi oracle contracts and many other=C2=A0cool things (pretty = much everything you can find in the dlc specs)!

Ot= herwise nice article Jeremy. Maybe you should drop by our monthly DLC spec = meeting one of these days. I'm sure everybody would be happy to hear ho= w we could improve the Bitcoin derivatives ecosystem with CTV and what infr= astructures or code could be reused from DLCs.

Che= ers,

Thibaut

On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 7:39 AM = yancy via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wro= te:
Prayank,

I believe the p2pderivatives DLC application is still under active
development here (single oracle):
https://github.com/p2pderivatives/rust-dlc

I was once involved in the project in a galaxy far far away but haven't=
kept up with the project.=C2=A0 Also, I'm a few days behind in the Bitc= oin
Advent Calendar :)

Cheers,
-Yancy


On 2021-12-24 17:42, Prayank via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> Hi Jeremy,
>
>> Wheres the info come from? Well, multiple places. We could get it<= br> > from a third party (maybe using an attestation chain of some sort?), > or there are certain ways it could be self-referential (like for
> powswap [1]).
>
>> Now let=E2=80=99s define a threshold oracle =E2=80=93 we wouldn=E2= =80=99t want to
> trust just one lousy oracle, so let=E2=80=99s trust M out of N of them= !
>
> Similar approach is used in discreet log contracts for multi oracles.<= br> > There is even a project for P2P derivatives but it was not used for > any real trades on mainnet or further developed. What difference would=
> OP_CTV make in this project if its implemented in Bitcoin?
>
> https://github.com/p2pderivatives/p2pder= ivatives-client
>
> https://github.com/p2pderivatives/p2pder= ivatives-server
>
> https://github.com/p2pderivatives/p2pder= ivatives-oracle
>
>> Does this NEED CTV?
>
> No, not in particular. Most of this stuff could be done with online > signer server federation between you and counterparty. CTV makes some<= br> > stuff nicer though, and opens up new possibilities for opening these > contracts unilaterally.
>
> Nicer? How would unilateral derivatives work because my understanding<= br> > was that you always need a peer to take the other side of the trade. I=
> wish we could discuss this topic in a trading community with some
> Bitcoiners that even had some programming knowledge.
>
> Derivatives are interesting and less explored or used in Bitcoin
> projects. They could be useful in solving lot of problems.
>
> --
>
> Prayank
>
> A3B1 E430 2298 178F
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://powswap.com
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org= /mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
--0000000000005e004405d41f86ae--