public inbox for bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: AJ West <ajwest@gmail.com>
To: Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu@gmail.com>,
	 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
	<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Cc: Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for wordlists
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 10:26:38 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CABXVU6aa-CHzyWOgefzz5XgTS8vNUOUPbo4aWH4i0FZH=xFr9w@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CA+vKqYckHe-8dfZw0ktxNvqQP4XYHHKUJwfwsYhvYyj3BfOCkg@mail.gmail.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 9004 bytes --]

Greg yes, there were already examples in this very thread of people
explaining how they use languages other than English. I'm shocked that so
many people are resisting the idea that just *maybe* there could be people
in other parts of the world who do not want to use or cannot use the strict
set of latin characters and words from the English language.

I agree with Sjors and maybe I'm simplifying too much, but can't we just
map an existing ISO/UTF language character standard to the seeds? Why is
there a word list at all? Choose a flexible encoding standard, create a
clever map to the bytes, make sure to include a checksum.

As an aside, I know there are some conventions which add space for error
correction but I personally don't love the idea of somebody inputting what
they think is the proper seed, only to have it auto-corrected and thus
reinforcing their erroneously saved/written seed backup.

Pavol, why do you say "I learned that it was something I should've been
more persistently against?" I still can't see any good arguments as to why
we should limit this to English other than "It's easier to support a single
language" which comes at the cost of "It's hard for me to backup my seed"
for those who don't speak English.

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> > Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?
>
> yes. Based on language stats from the app stores, roughly 30% to 40% of
> Copay users have their backup on a language
> other than English, and we constantly get requests to support new
> languages in BIP39.
>
> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev <
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Copay (and all its clones) use it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and
>>>> isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a
>>>> mistake to add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the making
>>>> for some poor sap who can't even read English letters when almost all
>>>> documentation is written in English.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev <
>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, 木ノ下じょな <kinoshitajona@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is very sad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English
>>>>>> words.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase
>>>>>> (because he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter"
>>>>>> for "amateur"...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain
>>>>>> processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.
>>>>>> Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for
>>>>>> letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier
>>>>>> to plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well said.  Thank you for telling of these experiences.  Now please,
>>>>> let’s put the shoe on the other foot.
>>>>>
>>>>> I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust
>>>>> *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this
>>>>> down—then later, type it back in:
>>>>>
>>>>> すさん たんろ りゆう しもん ていおん しとう
>>>>> とこや はやい おうさま ほくろ けちゃっふ たもつ
>>>>>
>>>>> (Approximate translation:  “Whatever would you do if Bitcoin had been
>>>>> invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?”)
>>>>>
>>>>> No, wait:  That is only a 12-word mnemonic.  We are probably talking
>>>>> about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life’s
>>>>> savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:
>>>>>
>>>>> にあう しひょう にんすう ひえる かいこう いのる ねんし はあさん ひこく
>>>>> とうく きもためし そなた こなこな にさんかたんそ ろんき めいあん みわく
>>>>> へこむ すひょう おやゆひ ふせく けさき めいきょく こんまけ
>>>>>
>>>>> Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own
>>>>> hands?  No?  Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on
>>>>> the inverse case.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----
>>>>>
>>>>> If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many
>>>>> Japanese people know English and other European languages, too.  Then think
>>>>> of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and
>>>>> friends—if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed to
>>>>> wrestle with the above phrases as their “mnemonics”.
>>>>>
>>>>> In such cases, the phrases cannot be called “mnemonics” at all.  A
>>>>> “mnemonic” implies aid to memory.  Gibberish in a wholly alien writing
>>>>> system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings.  The
>>>>> Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote “aneter” for “amateur”, was not
>>>>> dealing with a *mnemonic*:  He was using the world’s most inefficient means
>>>>> of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----
>>>>>
>>>>> I began this thread with a quite simple request:  Is “日本語” an
>>>>> appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese
>>>>> users?  And what of the other strings I posted for other languages?
>>>>>
>>>>> I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the
>>>>> greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software:  Independent
>>>>> implementations.  —  I asked, because obviously, I myself do not speak all
>>>>> these different languages; and I want to implement them all.  *All.*
>>>>>
>>>>> Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far,
>>>>> nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into
>>>>> criticism of multi-language support.  I opened with a question about other
>>>>> languages, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of “English
>>>>> only!”
>>>>>
>>>>> Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever
>>>>> implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted
>>>>> to English.  I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard
>>>>> called “BIP 39” which has seven non-English wordlists, and four more
>>>>> pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).
>>>>>
>>>>> I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate
>>>>> for use with that standard.
>>>>>
>>>>> (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the
>>>>> foregoing.  I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed
>>>>> characters.  I thought of this after I searched for and collected some
>>>>> visually fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...  It
>>>>> should go without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C
>>>>> Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:
>>>>> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG)  (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
>>>>> “‘If you’re not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.’
>>>>> No!  Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.” — nullius
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matías Alejo Garcia
>>> @ematiu
>>> Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matías Alejo Garcia
> @ematiu
> Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 12746 bytes --]

  reply	other threads:[~2018-01-08 15:27 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 18+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-01-05 13:58 [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for wordlists nullius
2018-01-05 16:04 ` Sjors Provoost
     [not found]   ` <CALPhJax=53dLL9+JDKJC7NdEFFRB2kgKiECSh8PUMzrr2KxWuQ@mail.gmail.com>
2018-01-05 17:13     ` Sjors Provoost
2018-01-05 18:08       ` Aymeric Vitte
     [not found]         ` <CALPhJaxzayykMMxaa421kfu6QQ77JD7bZJk8+dXT4qSqK_eABg@mail.gmail.com>
2018-01-05 19:56           ` Aymeric Vitte
     [not found]             ` <CALPhJawP7hjucR6X3gpTxCxK+awMT9iArELZYFy_zffCGgVMEw@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]               ` <58C8F1BA-B9A1-4525-BCC9-BF4CEDC87E1B@sprovoost.nl>
     [not found]                 ` <a3e10fe7-ed9c-bb58-bf12-d0aeda2827e4@gmail.com>
     [not found]                   ` <a2e8b3e2-b444-039c-c51e-43294a3437c9@gmail.com>
     [not found]                     ` <CALPhJaz1wU8y6KxZipREjus8WbHpwpyYjyMwgj5x-tTodxpjCQ@mail.gmail.com>
2018-01-06 17:40                       ` Aymeric Vitte
     [not found]                         ` <CALPhJaw8_wpPCRj58JcZqLnEvOtLoo=U_VBYRLSKTCeN7TFB6A@mail.gmail.com>
2018-01-06 19:46                           ` Aymeric Vitte
2018-01-05 18:08   ` nullius
2018-01-07 15:16 ` Pavol Rusnak
2018-01-08  7:35   ` 木ノ下じょな
2018-01-08 11:13     ` nullius
2018-01-08 14:34       ` Greg Sanders
2018-01-08 14:52         ` Matias Alejo Garcia
2018-01-08 14:54           ` Greg Sanders
2018-01-08 15:23             ` Matias Alejo Garcia
2018-01-08 15:26               ` AJ West [this message]
2018-01-08 15:32                 ` Greg Sanders
2018-01-08 16:02             ` Aymeric Vitte

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to='CABXVU6aa-CHzyWOgefzz5XgTS8vNUOUPbo4aWH4i0FZH=xFr9w@mail.gmail.com' \
    --to=ajwest@gmail.com \
    --cc=bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org \
    --cc=ematiu@gmail.com \
    --cc=gsanders87@gmail.com \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox