Greg yes, there were already examples in this very thread of people explaining how they use languages other than English. I'm shocked that so many people are resisting the idea that just maybe there could be people in other parts of the world who do not want to use or cannot use the strict set of latin characters and words from the English language.

I agree with Sjors and maybe I'm simplifying too much, but can't we just map an existing ISO/UTF language character standard to the seeds? Why is there a word list at all? Choose a flexible encoding standard, create a clever map to the bytes, make sure to include a checksum.

As an aside, I know there are some conventions which add space for error correction but I personally don't love the idea of somebody inputting what they think is the proper seed, only to have it auto-corrected and thus reinforcing their erroneously saved/written seed backup.

Pavol, why do you say "I learned that it was something I should've been more persistently against?" I still can't see any good arguments as to why we should limit this to English other than "It's easier to support a single language" which comes at the cost of "It's hard for me to backup my seed" for those who don't speak English.

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?

yes. Based on language stats from the app stores, roughly 30% to 40% of Copay users have their backup on a language
other than English, and we constantly get requests to support new languages in BIP39. 

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com> wrote:
Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu@gmail.com> wrote:


On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39?


Copay (and all its clones) use it. 



 

If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a mistake to add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the making for some poor sap who can't even read English letters when almost all documentation is written in English.

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, 木ノ下じょな <kinoshitajona@gmail.com> wrote:
This is very sad.

The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.

I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" for "amateur"...

 [...]

If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.  Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.

 [...]

Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.

Well said.  Thank you for telling of these experiences.  Now please, let’s put the shoe on the other foot.

I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this down—then later, type it back in:

すさん　たんろ　りゆう　しもん　ていおん　しとう
とこや　はやい　おうさま　ほくろ　けちゃっふ　たもつ

(Approximate translation:  “Whatever would you do if Bitcoin had been invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?”)

No, wait:  That is only a 12-word mnemonic.  We are probably talking about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life’s savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:

にあう　しひょう　にんすう　ひえる　かいこう　いのる　ねんし　はあさん　ひこく
とうく　きもためし　そなた　こなこな　にさんかたんそ　ろんき　めいあん　みわく
へこむ　すひょう　おやゆひ　ふせく　けさき　めいきょく　こんまけ

Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?  No?  Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on the inverse case.

----

If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many Japanese people know English and other European languages, too.  Then think of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and friends—if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed to wrestle with the above phrases as their “mnemonics”.

In such cases, the phrases cannot be called “mnemonics” at all.  A “mnemonic” implies aid to memory.  Gibberish in a wholly alien writing system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings.  The Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote “aneter” for “amateur”, was not dealing with a *mnemonic*:  He was using the world’s most inefficient means of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.

----

I began this thread with a quite simple request:  Is “日本語” an appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese users?  And what of the other strings I posted for other languages?

I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software:  Independent implementations.  —  I asked, because obviously, I myself do not speak all these different languages; and I want to implement them all.  *All.*

Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far, nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question.

Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism of multi-language support.  I opened with a question about other languages, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of “English only!”

Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted to English.  I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard called “BIP 39” which has seven non-English wordlists, and four more pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).

I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for use with that standard.

(P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing.  I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters.  I thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...  It should go without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)


--
nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C
Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:
3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG)  (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
“‘If you’re not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.’
No!  Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.” — nullius

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--
Matías Alejo Garcia
@ematiu
Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!




--
Matías Alejo Garcia
@ematiu
Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!

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