From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1YxneX-00036n-52 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 28 May 2015 02:34:37 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.217.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.173; envelope-from=kanzure@gmail.com; helo=mail-lb0-f173.google.com; Received: from mail-lb0-f173.google.com ([209.85.217.173]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1YxneV-0003Ed-C6 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 28 May 2015 02:34:37 +0000 Received: by lbcue7 with SMTP id ue7so19300554lbc.0 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 19:34:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.202.36 with SMTP id kf4mr471058lbc.0.1432780468938; Wed, 27 May 2015 19:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.18.168 with HTTP; Wed, 27 May 2015 19:34:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 21:34:28 -0500 Message-ID: From: Bryan Bishop To: Andrew , Bryan Bishop Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c371d6e46c7805171b321a X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (kanzure[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1YxneV-0003Ed-C6 Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Scaling Bitcoin with Subchains X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 02:34:37 -0000 --001a11c371d6e46c7805171b321a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 9:16 PM, Andrew wrote: > You should also keep in mind the big picture when it comes to > decentralization. If the hard drives (or tapes) can only be produced by a > small number of large companies like Western Digital or Seagate, then you > can't really count those for a decentralized system. A truly decentralized > system would have the devices needed to participate in (and verify) the > system be easily created by a regular user of the system without relying on > a central power. So for example, the hard drives needed to store the > bitcoin transaction records should be able to be produced at a regular > person's home on a 3D printer starting from just the raw materials. I don't > know how close we are to this ideal, but just pointing out that it needs to > be considered. This is also a reason why I like that Bitcoin uses the > simple SHA sum for mining instead of a more complicated function such as > scrypt. It makes it easier for small scale entities to understand and to > produce the ASIC miners. I am a huge fan of do-it-yourself at-home ASIC manufacturing. The original 4004 and earlier devices are within the scope of what could be accomplished in a home environment. The homecmos project is an interesting glimpse at these possibilities. Relevant-scale mining will most likely never be an option for home manufacturing, but bitcoin wallets and other devices can definitely be etched by hand or using maskless projector lithography. Here's what the homecmos group was up to: https://code.google.com/p/homecmos/ http://homecmos.drawersteak.com/wiki/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/DIY%20fabrication%20of%20microstructures%20by%20projection%20photolithography.pdf LCD projection lithography: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/Cell%20micropatterning%20using%20photopolymerization%20with%20a%20liquid%20crystal%20device%20(LCD)%20commercial%20projector%20-%20Itoga%20-%202003.pdf http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/Development%20of%20microfabrication%20technology%20with%20maskless%20photolithography%20device%20using%20LCD%20projector%20-%20Itoga%20-%202010.pdf http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/Second-generation%20maskless%20photolithography%20device%20for%20surface%20micropatterning%20and%20microfluidic%20channel%20fabrication%20(using%20an%20LCD%20projector).pdf DMD lithography: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/Maskless%20microscopic%20lithography%20through%20shaping%20ultraviolet%20(UV)%20laser%20with%20digital%20micromirror%20device%20(DMD)%20-%202013.pdf http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/A%20maskless%20photolithographic%20prototyping%20system%20using%20a%20low-cost%20consumer%20projector%20and%20a%20microscope.pdf There's actually a method of doing this with conventional camera roll film: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/diybio/5hpQXZ6hFKY/baGNfY_-Wx8J - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 --001a11c371d6e46c7805171b321a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On W= ed, May 27, 2015 at 9:16 PM, Andrew <onelineproof@gmail.com> wrote:
You should also keep in mind the big pictu= re when it comes to decentralization. If the hard drives (or tapes) can onl= y be produced by a small number of large companies like Western Digital or = Seagate, then you can't really count those for a decentralized system. = A truly decentralized system would have the devices needed to participate i= n (and verify) the system be easily created by a regular user of the system= without relying on a central power. So for example, the hard drives needed= to store the bitcoin transaction records should be able to be produced at = a regular person's home on a 3D printer starting from just the raw mate= rials. I don't know how close we are to this ideal, but just pointing o= ut that it needs to be considered. This is also a reason why I like that Bi= tcoin uses the simple SHA sum for mining instead of a more complicated func= tion such as scrypt. It makes it easier for small scale entities to underst= and and to produce the ASIC miners.

I am a huge fan o= f do-it-yourself at-home ASIC manufacturing. The original 4004 and earlier = devices are within the scope of what could be accomplished in a home enviro= nment. The homecmos project is an interesting glimpse at these possibilitie= s. Relevant-scale mining will most likely never be an option for home manuf= acturing, but bitcoin wallets and other devices can definitely be etched by= hand or using maskless projector lithography.

Here's what the homecmos group= was up to:
https://code.google.com/p/homecmos/
http://home= cmos.drawersteak.com/wiki/
http://diyhp= l.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/DIY%20fabrication%20of%20micros= tructures%20by%20projection%20photolithography.pdf

LCD projection lithography= :
http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photoli= thography/Cell%20micropatterning%20using%20photopolymerization%20with%20a%2= 0liquid%20crystal%20device%20(LCD)%20commercial%20projector%20-%20Itoga%20-= %202003.pdf
http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/opti= cs/photolithography/Development%20of%20microfabrication%20technology%20with= %20maskless%20photolithography%20device%20using%20LCD%20projector%20-%20Ito= ga%20-%202010.pdf
http:= //diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/Second-generation%20mask= less%20photolithography%20device%20for%20surface%20micropatterning%20and%20= microfluidic%20channel%20fabrication%20(using%20an%20LCD%20projector).pdf

DMD lithography:
http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/o= ptics/photolithography/Maskless%20microscopic%20lithography%20through%20sha= ping%20ultraviolet%20(UV)%20laser%20with%20digital%20micromirror%20device%2= 0(DMD)%20-%202013.pdf
http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/ph= otolithography/A%20maskless%20photolithographic%20prototyping%20system%20us= ing%20a%20low-cost%20consumer%20projector%20and%20a%20microscope.pdf

Ther= e's actually a method of doing this with conventional camera roll film:=
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/diybio/5h= pQXZ6hFKY/baGNfY_-Wx8J

<= div class=3D"gmail_signature">- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507
--001a11c371d6e46c7805171b321a--