From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1XqtQt-0002Y5-Eo for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 19 Nov 2014 00:47:44 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of pixodegames.com designates 209.85.217.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.180; envelope-from=flavien.charlon@pixodegames.com; helo=mail-lb0-f180.google.com; Received: from mail-lb0-f180.google.com ([209.85.217.180]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1XqtQr-0004hL-9f for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 19 Nov 2014 00:47:43 +0000 Received: by mail-lb0-f180.google.com with SMTP id z11so11520272lbi.39 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 2014 16:47:34 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=dhuP7oUASY6QX2lO3L+DLLgeRtFV0ZjttZk5g9aRRcg=; b=BQ2sSIyyEXOvNle1Jku2qE7WTuJATa2Bmtre5oVmG822yoTW6Rq6mpn5Mp3NgVIHPX t7RTa19dS4v2gTu+mh0l4t81FWWV7D5Ouax3ivv4uavFp8QDI8hdKmpqb5kYFAqXpuCW F/Dny4gjKNydqfN7oM3b0zSx2fVtSOyyX/8DgA6DopoYRaqMe0qG8lZgVLhwfkJccGqm AiPfMt6nqGS8pd1Cmzuk+INELD8qwky7qgyO5QtviL/piA9JPbfW0C5RuBnkcGY+w8GT xmstYuAM3BuD/7+rybILgyJC40/VazORoCdB+LE9McGPEDZXCo9kKitleZROgcsNTiut ewjw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl0u8v+8ItJo2GJKZn2uq+5c/gdaxakrtEZCo42GkBb6yqnjIF8F1qWBwx32gnJ3TyYcjsO X-Received: by 10.112.254.162 with SMTP id aj2mr2360833lbd.70.1416358054731; Tue, 18 Nov 2014 16:47:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-f180.google.com (mail-lb0-f180.google.com. [209.85.217.180]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id w8sm44469lbp.46.2014.11.18.16.47.34 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Nov 2014 16:47:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-f180.google.com with SMTP id z11so11777402lbi.11 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 2014 16:47:34 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.152.42.226 with SMTP id r2mr2444758lal.29.1416358054258; Tue, 18 Nov 2014 16:47:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.23.227 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Nov 2014 16:46:51 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [89.100.161.202] In-Reply-To: References: <201411161724.19573.luke@dashjr.org> <5469692F.9030702@gmail.com> From: Flavien Charlon Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 00:46:51 +0000 Message-ID: To: Btc Drak Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c35088b3003605082b8eca X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1XqtQr-0004hL-9f Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Increasing the OP_RETURN maximum payload size X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 00:47:44 -0000 --001a11c35088b3003605082b8eca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > While I am not opposing the proposal, I am not sure about your statistics > because while Counterparty is not currently using OP_RETURN encoding, you > should factor in the number of CP transactions that would have been > OP_RETURNs if they had been permitted (100,000 since inception according > their blog[1] with monthly charts at their block explorer[2]). Sure, but even if they are not permitted to store their data in OP_RETURN, they will still store it in the blockchain in bare multisig outputs, so it's not contributing to an overhead (in fact, it would consume less space in the blockchain if they used OP_RETURN). On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Btc Drak wrote: > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Flavien Charlon < > flavien.charlon@coinprism.com> wrote: > >> > My main concern with OP_RETURN is that it seems to encourage people to >> use the blockchain as a convenient transport channel >> >> The number one user of the blockchain as a storage and transport >> mechanism is Counterparty, and limiting OP_RETURN to 40 bytes didn't >> prevent them from doing so. In fact they use multi-sig outputs which is >> worse than OP_RETURN since it's not always prunable, and yet let them store >> much more than 40 bytes. >> >> For Open Assets , we >> need to store a URL in the OP_RETURN output (with optionally a hash) plus >> some bytes of overhead. 40 bytes comes really short for that. The benefit >> of having a URL in there is that any storage mechanism can be used (Web, >> FTP, BitTorrent, MaidSafe...), whereas with only a hash, you have to >> hardcode the storing mechanism in the protocol (and even then, a hash is >> not enough to address a HTTP or FTP resource). Storing only a hash is fine >> for the most basic timestamping application, but it's hardly enough to >> build something interesting. >> >> I've counted the number of OP_RETURN outputs in the blockchain for the >> month of October 2014. There were 1,674 OP_RETURNs for a span of 4,659 >> blocks. Assuming they were all 40 bytes (the average is probably less than >> half of that), that means an increase of 14.37 bytes per block. Considering >> a 1 MB block, that's about 0.0013% of the block used up by OP_RETURN >> data in average. >> >> Increasing to 80 bytes will have a negligible impact on bandwidth and >> storage requirements, while being extremely useful for many use cases where >> a hash only is not enough. >> > > While I am not opposing the proposal, I am not sure about your statistics > because while Counterparty is not currently using OP_RETURN encoding, you > should factor in the number of CP transactions that would have been > OP_RETURNs if they had been permitted (100,000 since inception according > their blog[1] with monthly charts at their block explorer[2]). > > Refs: > [1] > http://counterparty.io/news/celebrating-100000-transaction-on-the-counterparty-network/ > [2] http://blockscan.com/ > > --001a11c35088b3003605082b8eca Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
While I am not opposing the proposal, I a= m not sure about your statistics because while Counterparty is not currentl= y using OP_RETURN encoding, you should factor in the number of CP transacti= ons that would have been OP_RETURNs if they had been permitted (100,000 sin= ce inception according their blog[1] with monthly charts at their block exp= lorer[2]).

Sure, but even if they are not p= ermitted to store their data in OP_RETURN, they will still store it in the = blockchain in bare multisig outputs, so it's not contributing to an ove= rhead (in fact, it would consume less space in the blockchain if they used = OP_RETURN).=C2=A0

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Btc Drak <= ;btcdrak@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Nov 17, 20= 14 at 11:43 AM, Flavien Charlon <flavien.charlon@coinprism.com= > wrote:
>= My main concern with OP_RETURN is that it seems to encourage people to use= the blockchain as a convenient transport channel

The number one user of the blockchain as a storage and transport mec= hanism is Counterparty, and limiting OP_RETURN to 40 bytes didn't preve= nt them from doing so. In fact they use multi-sig outputs which is worse th= an OP_RETURN since it's not always prunable, and yet let them store muc= h more than 40 bytes.

For Open Assets, w= e need to store a URL in the OP_RETURN output (with optionally a hash) plus= some bytes of overhead. 40 bytes comes really short for that. The benefit = of having a URL in there is that any storage mechanism can be used (Web, FT= P, BitTorrent, MaidSafe...), whereas with only a hash, you have to hardcode= the storing mechanism in the protocol (and even then, a hash is not enough= to address a HTTP or FTP resource). Storing only a hash is fine for the mo= st basic timestamping application, but it's hardly enough to build some= thing interesting.

I've counted the number of = OP_RETURN outputs in the blockchain for the month of October 2014. There we= re 1,674 OP_RETURNs for a span of 4,659 blocks.=C2=A0Assuming they were all= 40 bytes (the average is probably less than half of that), that means an i= ncrease of 14.37 bytes per block. Considering a 1 MB block, that's abou= t 0.0013% of the block used up by OP_RETURN data in average.

Increasing to 80 bytes will have= a negligible impact on bandwidth and storage requirements, while being ext= remely useful for many use cases where a hash only is not enough.

While I am not opposing th= e proposal, I am not sure about your statistics because while Counterparty = is not currently using OP_RETURN encoding, you should factor in the number = of CP transactions that would have been OP_RETURNs if they had been permitt= ed (100,000 since inception according their blog[1] with monthly charts at = their block explorer[2]).

Refs:
[2]=C2=A0http://blocks= can.com/


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