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From: "Jorge Timón" <jtimon@jtimon.cc>
To: Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Why Satoshi's temporary anti-spam measure isn't temporary
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:36:13 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CABm2gDo=PjdOJtXQ+T2UNXubreSZXigEnRFRwhd-nAGvWXs+AQ@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CABsx9T1Wgf8u-ZKXmiRhQwdJNkDJg9RL_o2j2cWxP-6nKmxS2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 8:50 AM, Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com>
> So what do you think the scalability road map should look like? Should we
> wait to hard fork until Blockstream Elements is ready for deploying on the
> main network, and then have One Grand Hardfork that introduces all the
> scalability work you guys have been working on (like Segregated Witness and
> Lightning)?

Apparently lightning doesn't require Segregated Witnesses: cltv and
rcltv may be enough (although I'm not up to date to the latest
designs). I definitely don't think we should wait to have SW ready to
be deployable in Bitcoin to have other hardforks. I think we should
have an uncontroversial hardfork as soon as possible, if anything, to
set a precedent and show the world that hardforks are possible in
Bitcoin, see https://github.com/jtimon/bips/blob/bip-forks/bip-forks.org#code

> Or is the plan to avoid controversy by people voluntarily moving their
> bitcoin to a sidechain where all this scaling-up innovation happens?

Any scaling up innovation that happens in sidechains can be adopted by
Bitcoin too.
In fact, some of those changes (like op_maturity/rcltv/scv) are needed
in Bitcoin for a fully p2p Bitcoin sidechain to be even possible.
I really think lightning should be possible in Bitcoin main (and not
just sidechains) as soon as possible.

> And any plan that requires inventing brand-new technology is going to be
> riskier than scaling up what we already have and understand, which is why I
> think it is worthwhile to scale up what we have IN ADDITION TO working on
> great projects like Segregated Witness and Lightning.

Not necessarily. How are older payment channels designs (different
from lightning) that don't even require cltv riskier than a hardfork?
In any case, yes, both things are kind of orthogonal and we can work
on both (and more) at the same time.


  parent reply	other threads:[~2015-07-30 15:36 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 69+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2015-07-28 22:25 [bitcoin-dev] Why Satoshi's temporary anti-spam measure isn't temporary Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-29  0:43 ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-29  0:44   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-29  0:46   ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-07-29  0:55     ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-29  2:40       ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-29  3:37         ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-29  3:46           ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-07-29  5:17             ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-29 11:18         ` Thomas Zander
2015-07-29  9:59 ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-29 10:43   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-29 11:15     ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-29 12:03       ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-29 12:13         ` Thomas Zander
2015-07-29 17:17       ` [bitcoin-dev] Why Satoshi's temporary anti-spam measure isn'ttemporary Raystonn .
2015-07-29 19:56       ` [bitcoin-dev] Why Satoshi's temporary anti-spam measure isn't temporary Owen
2015-07-29 20:09         ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-07-29 21:28           ` [bitcoin-dev] Why Satoshi's temporary anti-spam measure isn'ttemporary Raystonn .
2015-07-29 22:11             ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-07-29 23:10               ` Raystonn .
2015-07-30  3:49                 ` Adam Back
2015-07-30  4:51                   ` Andrew LeCody
2015-07-30  8:21                     ` [bitcoin-dev] Why Satoshi's temporary anti-spam measure isn't temporary Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-30  9:15                       ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-30 12:29                       ` Gavin
2015-07-30 12:50                         ` Pieter Wuille
2015-07-30 14:03                           ` Thomas Zander
2015-07-30 14:05                           ` Gavin Andresen
2015-07-30 14:28                             ` Pieter Wuille
2015-07-30 15:36                             ` Jorge Timón [this message]
2015-07-30 23:33                         ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-31  0:15                           ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-07-31 21:30                             ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-31 21:43                               ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-31  6:42                           ` Thomas Zander
2015-07-31 20:45                             ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-31 20:57                               ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-08-01 20:22                               ` John T. Winslow
2015-08-01 21:05                                 ` Pieter Wuille
2015-07-30  9:16                   ` [bitcoin-dev] Why Satoshi's temporary anti-spam measure isn'ttemporary Venzen Khaosan
2015-07-30  9:38                     ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-30 13:33                       ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-07-30 14:10                         ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-30 14:52                       ` Thomas Zander
2015-07-30 15:24                         ` Bryan Bishop
2015-07-30 15:55                           ` Gavin Andresen
2015-07-30 17:24                             ` Thomas Zander
2015-07-31 15:27                             ` Bryan Bishop
2015-07-30 16:07                           ` Thomas Zander
2015-07-30 17:42                             ` Thomas Zander
2015-07-30 18:02                               ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-07-31  0:22                                 ` [bitcoin-dev] Why Satoshi's temporary anti-spam measure isn't temporary Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-31  8:06                                 ` [bitcoin-dev] Why Satoshi's temporary anti-spam measure isn'ttemporary Thomas Zander
2015-07-30 15:41                         ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-30  9:44             ` odinn
2015-07-29 20:23         ` [bitcoin-dev] Why Satoshi's temporary anti-spam measureisn't temporary Raystonn .
2015-07-29 11:29     ` [bitcoin-dev] Why Satoshi's temporary anti-spam measure isn't temporary Thomas Zander
2015-07-29 18:00     ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-30  7:08       ` Thomas Zander
2015-07-29 16:53   ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-07-29 17:30     ` Sriram Karra
2015-07-29 18:03     ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-29 19:53       ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-07-30 14:15         ` Thomas Zander
2015-07-30  9:05       ` odinn
2015-07-31  1:25 Raystonn
2015-07-31  3:18 ` Milly Bitcoin
     [not found] <f9e27b28-f967-45f7-bd1b-c427534ade9c@me.com>
2015-07-31 23:05 ` Jean-Paul Kogelman

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