From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33F00407 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 2015 09:42:56 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-wi0-f181.google.com (mail-wi0-f181.google.com [209.85.212.181]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43A3F172 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 2015 09:42:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wibxm9 with SMTP id xm9so20837878wib.0 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 2015 02:42:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=N/WoSvwbpVftiawlwZBU1mk/bD33QL6pSN98m9TFq3w=; b=AyR0Rja0t8uYTYJa4+KZA4qLOkAuoKzWcLWryQp3IFFBYxsYC7w7D22elnFKMQ1Jig m6T8ADs/ixyZ4tmZo7arCAWpQcs8IN7hSH9Qpy916GSrztKIkj575SO9pnS7B2c0UcNe 1S5YgKAUBFBI+ZcWy9aH3m4QB7ikhg8LfvHHOiNtWXiyr+6v1xlRIAxxegydX3g2nQvI ilhTB0IKQZYxW8J5cAjiJ7etrBpLkt8c3L4w26ijYp1qtwr+NCn2WIGE3oSCW/SJsHF5 OdOq005ilXjdBuC3Xf46FJ3gOYTXdbMTq1jG9z9t5RSYRwCayKQahetakDxWBQcXsVxK oa8g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlEAspuAxR4cCMf4PbgdDstl9FpGdRRdjrLW8+MBDxz2rISHBoFeAJOVXVoh2MqNDL9Imjz MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.181.13.195 with SMTP id fa3mr5492806wid.7.1437730974018; Fri, 24 Jul 2015 02:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.95.168 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Jul 2015 02:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.95.168 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Jul 2015 02:42:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55B1FBCE.1080002@jonasschnelli.ch> References: <346D4CE0-E00D-4ABB-B131-EFA1416CB20C@me.com> <29363BE6-72A7-4D06-A974-C52BA12FD8BD@gmail.com> <55FFBC8F-A3C9-4109-89C7-AC359FBBD478@me.com> <4734381C-2000-4D9B-9099-DDE3D38D64A3@me.com> <0E15E07E-E21C-4541-869A-3C34CBA35774@gmail.com> <9AC88C7C-4BA4-4DF2-913F-9DC6874BD19D@me.com> <83982C1D-4FE6-4A5C-BC93-BFBD9756F3D2@gmail.com> <55B1FBCE.1080002@jonasschnelli.ch> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 11:42:53 +0200 Message-ID: From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm9yZ2UgVGltw7Nu?= To: Jonas Schnelli Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043c07d4fd3a1b051b9bd380 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin, Perceptions, and Expectations X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 09:42:56 -0000 --f46d043c07d4fd3a1b051b9bd380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Well, I think "fast international transactions" is still true. An hour is pretty fast when you compare it with several days. But yeah, "free" and "instant" are misleading words. Low fees may be ok. One thing that is not mentioned often is that the fact that the system is p2p is what makes transactions irreversible (otherwise a court order can tell any centralized server to cancel any transaction). Irreversible transactions don't need proportional fees, because there's nothing being ensured and the amount being moved is irrelevant. So even if we have a future with 5 usd fees, that's still a very low fee for moving, say 1 M usd worth of btc. So I'm not opposed to talking about low fees, just not free and not instant (although lightning can actually provide free and instant transactions). On Jul 24, 2015 10:48 AM, "Jonas Schnelli via bitcoin-dev" < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > > There is now a pull request to remove mention of "zero or low > > fees", "fast international payments", and "instant peer-to-peer > > transactions" from bitcoin.org. For those non-technical users who > > do not read source code, this may come across as the breaking of > > the social contract on what Bitcoin is ultimately intended to be. > > It looks like we already have a Reddit post on the subject as > > well. > > This PR makes absolutely sense. > A documentation or description should reflect how a system works NOW. > Not how it *was working and how it *might work once. > > The concept of free transaction just doens't really work well with the > current system and advertising bitcoin with "free transaction" is > missleading. > > /jonas > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1 > > iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJVsfvOAAoJECnUvLZBb1PseawP/1KrqKw5IGKUHmTf1E+oOLmq > nD7c1JekBGrJc7Lk0PfKZqS21aQZIt145DnFPv//u/C43x3zt7QSggMNSVYJmI85 > AnrTRRP18TBGDm9CwVFjTbZ4tY/sRoDX9XMDBtlGDdAABX47C493PEI9pXZ5pRc7 > cuLsSTKNqQdJgl3vUydfwddgaaVKPWN+zO72lZVo/edrUwzpjqjO3tu/+36ytto7 > Ebm/vxOT+afrcFfAt3ZwuSwx7uiVoqsVRAwV1LWobod2wejpkUxf7Qkb1XRraSEV > m2opX6UAmPc3emKP+nT2ufDUM3z8YnW1WgjGB6UDXcCge+X5B7aXICI+qOzVR5Ck > djf4XMY9gXku26K72zk27XxmutajAYzsFvFbhm+HYa1q9yKRvDg8A9hYZ/6sKPQD > s6Hn3jou75YVz0mLpAKP7hkP7AmzOkS2gq/M/6SL3Fq+B3mObRMhpMgcpebzT2Oq > p7vLuh5OejcBX7VasVeodAEh9BkTJH9ll72QaJ63C4AjZ1Si87CnijIf8ACmmSxQ > wImwWs7aH0/x8xwxrpZzvVTf0/4hrPu5St6IMhz0DZlEaKJ/Rg6gI2/UKy/jma6u > 6uVEGBft4eJH+zQN1Ddral5d56P3DSW7ClLLjiMXx1NpB2U1XAWDXNybqYIrSlvX > ej0qto4XVj20K3JS3CMl > =e71j > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --f46d043c07d4fd3a1b051b9bd380 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well, I think "fast international transactions" is= still true. An hour is pretty fast when you compare it with several days. = But yeah, "free" and "instant" are misleading words. Low fees may be ok. One thing that is not mentioned often is that the fact = that the system is p2p is what makes transactions irreversible (otherwise a= court order can tell any centralized server to cancel any transaction). Ir= reversible transactions don't need proportional fees, because there'= ;s nothing being ensured and the amount being moved is irrelevant. So even = if we have a future with 5 usd fees, that's still a very low fee for mo= ving, say 1 M usd worth of btc. So I'm not opposed to talking about low= fees, just not free and not instant (although lightning can actually provi= de free and instant transactions).

On Jul 24, 2015 10:48 AM, "Jonas Schnelli v= ia bitcoin-dev" <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<= br> Hash: SHA1


> There is now a pull request to remove mention of "zero or low
> fees", "fast international payments", and "instant= peer-to-peer
> transactions" from bitcoin.org.=C2=A0 For those non-technical users = who
> do not read source code, this may come across as the breaking of
> the social contract on what Bitcoin is ultimately intended to be.
> It looks like we already have a Reddit post on the subject as
> well.

This PR makes absolutely sense.
A documentation or description should reflect how a system works NOW.
Not how it *was working and how it *might work once.

The concept of free transaction just doens't really work well with the<= br> current system and advertising bitcoin with "free transaction" is=
missleading.

/jonas
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