From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 355D31BBF for ; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 16:14:45 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-wi0-f179.google.com (mail-wi0-f179.google.com [209.85.212.179]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62946268 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 16:14:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wiclk2 with SMTP id lk2so206294495wic.0 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 09:14:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ZKRLrse36OLuxWHW+Zd8XrjPdBjUKh4CSfvSJOqRNSM=; b=SnLu3qURXH0VxAtz4Uv0vEg1RDXX/IzI+f1wEysZAwJgc0TJNEJA7LIj6nNp0Qdoua UtjkdFU0TpmGr/2xuoC+pWqfu+Q0EMUanfLNOZyb6cLFUucuycgFZgmFrfTGssFM0KEA f7EsfBLczAQTvOlfXjSToGv2MpHW6aK9VZyQd2MKOtxEFx8WfBViu+6cpQGccv91ZdSo pNRSLQn+AqlxW7CoQT/YkA8rLpZWUy2owg+iRijIhDuX/QaKD5XBJOzpwH0EULzYf+BH K6dfGa/lNqckbLRJFk2ziZBs2EBwmj/gbwkGgl7VHUXMFO00JS9zToVF8Y2Cc+Kznpwp fg8g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkERARFPXj3NTi7D7l+5dljp2YBKYG1Bf97k/GEfSunhy8Trdsfj81FbULDYqARjeRHq9GE MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.8.106 with SMTP id q10mr5403364wia.92.1443629682969; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 09:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.114.199 with HTTP; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 09:14:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 18:14:42 +0200 Message-ID: From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm9yZ2UgVGltw7Nu?= To: Allen Piscitello Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Is it possible for there to be two chains after a hard fork? X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 16:14:45 -0000 Gavin, you assume that users must necessarily always follow the hashrate majority, but this is not true. In fact, it is the opposite: market forces make the hashrate follow the users. Not following the hashrate majority is not necessarily insane. If some users aren't happy with the new hardfork rules, they may never upgrade. This is discussed (although I want to improve the text) under the "Schism hardforks" section of BIP99 (which you may have some complaints against, so please review https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/181/files#diff-e331b8631759a4ed6a4cfb4d10f473caR135 ). It is true that users of chain A may sell or their B-coins, but the opposite is also true: users in chain B may sell all their A-coins. Speculators will likely sell both and probably not buy again until the initial uncertainty is gone (or they may never buy again, nobody can predict this). Let's use an example. Let's assume that a hardfork is rolled out to completely remove the blocksize limit (I believe you would be against that from previous conversations with you). As long as there are users creating demand for the old-coins, there will be miners mining the old coins. This is not insane for neither users or miners no matter how big the majority of users and/or miners in the new rules chain. Again, probably the best place to discuss this kind of thing is https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/181 or the bitcoin-dev thread linked from the BIP ( http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-June/008936.html ). On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Allen Piscitello via bitcoin-dev wrote: >>I started this thread as a sanity check on myself, because I keep seeing >> smart people saying that two chains could persist for more than a few days >> after a hard fork, and I still don't see how that would possibly work. > > When you start with the assumption that anyone who disagrees with you is > insane or crazy, I can see why you have such difficulty. > > > On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Gavin Andresen > wrote: >> >> We really shouldn't have to go over "Bitcoin 101" on this mailing list, >> and this discussion should move to the not-yet-created more general >> discussion list. I started this thread as a sanity check on myself, because >> I keep seeing smart people saying that two chains could persist for more >> than a few days after a hard fork, and I still don't see how that would >> possibly work. >> >> So: "fraud" would be 51% miners sending you bitcoin in exchange for >> something of value, you wait for confirmations and send them that something >> of value, and then the 51% reverses the transaction. >> >> Running a full node doesn't help. >> >> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Allen Piscitello >> wrote: >>> >>> >A dishonest miner majority can commit fraud against you, they can mine >>> > only empty blocks, they can do various other things that render your money >>> > worthless. >>> >>> Mining empty blocks is not fraud. >>> >>> If you want to use terms like "honest miners" and "fraud", please define >>> them so we can at least be on the same page. >>> >>> I am defining an honest miner as one that follows the rules of the >>> protocol. Obviously your definition is different. >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >because Bitcoin's basic security assumption is that a supermajority of >>>>> > miners are 'honest.' >>>>> >>>>> Only if you rely on SPV. >>>> >>>> >>>> No, you rely on miners honesty even if you run a full node. This is in >>>> the white paper. A dishonest miner majority can commit fraud against you, >>>> they can mine only empty blocks, they can do various other things that >>>> render your money worthless. >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Gavin Andresen > > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >