From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::136]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC227C000B for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:18:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA66612C3 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:18:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp3.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jtimon-cc.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XM_qMZMXIbIT for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:18:23 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2c]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FDD760F7B for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:18:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com with SMTP id j2so9952850ybu.0 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2022 05:18:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jtimon-cc.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+saH930ms7zVvCsUHJyFiItD2gGlZxYk3tHZH750joM=; b=VuZbD6/HOTJJIVjvtG8ujssxNFFxyIrpuj39v9yCxoeYtI6QFFzU14i1miuFFmTx4S cQgZukm1bwSWtdbS5Q2SxppJkbAVt5MZ4wHAx7Vbzay7slF/UYeQAet0cwZf8nwldq3C vp/JrDpjeodSWIytSiDumQtYbORwYHd08nT1FLt0jKZzM7f++aaj5CLTxoIDDgcpD9ww 0iZgMsqUFCMj7doIxcSKQUqba/vft0haR+zlduTSTYeB8Y9iRh7rOjW6/RdJVfrIg/qN iGX2u/HcvfY1inhscLnBfZXSOIbgM+w17syCExPEli0FZvdv5y9BjIHr5zPWXWY9uRq6 oq9A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+saH930ms7zVvCsUHJyFiItD2gGlZxYk3tHZH750joM=; b=35IlJnwntOgdnBN1Bc4niqYgdw1H1KDx9H01Os9Z+4sa5IqvDaBAYSg1QttHPYb8hv gk7gR6oIXNHat4X50BOOZkp6bV99tuu/igvBtbpAJv00MywkKZzgEchywyAyiSUoRttl Cnx25eAiY+JzqX+3RzApoDWcs/QJMhcgNhlzsWuCKQgbu6DzmM3lTZStsWffjeiQ/mSf VA/5gecVE0RIKw8giszDVY3/yCwFPM17bKE+NqO/VXUsguLVuceb0gqCNc2Rei2ZZldO 8N2ZJsK/cHcoWftOrpk2NDLjmucLXeEUyOgvu1afSr65i0g8l8XyxymCtzNkXGT49Hca 0qZg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5333jPzzuQ7y4hYgH1KYOoqipeafgg43WQ9/+fYI1FGTIOH5yIcT KAR/GZy+OsVNW+khPx5xokW3o8FNz802KJhZtCtyJA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw/+EmTxnNJgocO7dGA18/MEQO68AUR08QMQmU8qfbLLq52XRqVkNefdN/vu/yH7XjdIBF7gNRGEQZ/74A8cac= X-Received: by 2002:a5b:7d1:0:b0:628:d9f7:c5b8 with SMTP id t17-20020a5b07d1000000b00628d9f7c5b8mr4743683ybq.347.1647519502424; Thu, 17 Mar 2022 05:18:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm9yZ2UgVGltw7Nu?= Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 13:18:11 +0100 Message-ID: To: Billy Tetrud , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:25:40 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Speedy Trial X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:18:24 -0000 On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 7:34 PM Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > > If I find out I'm in the economic minority then I have little choice b= ut to either accept the existence of the new rules or sell my Bitcoin > > I do worry about what I have called a "dumb majority soft fork". This is = where, say, mainstream adoption has happened, some crisis of some magnitude= happens that convinces a lot of people something needs to change now. Let'= s say it's another congestion period where fees spike for months. Getting i= nto and out of lighting is hard and maybe even the security of lightning's = security model is called into question because it would either take too lon= g to get a transaction on chain or be too expensive. Panicy people might on= ce again think something like "let's increase the block size to 1GB, then w= e'll never have this problem again". This could happen in a segwit-like sof= t fork. I guess this is a better explained example for a hypothetical "evil fork" that may sound more concrete and plausible to some people than my own, which isn't that different. Thanks. > In a future where Bitcoin is the dominant world currency, it might not be= unrealistic to imagine that an economic majority might not understand why = such a thing would be so dangerous, or think the risk is low enough to be w= orth it. At that point, we in the economic minority would need a plan to ha= rd fork away. One wouldn't necessarily need to sell all their majority fork= Bitcoin, but they could. > > That minority fork would of course need some mining power. How much? I do= n't know, but we should think about how small of a minority chain we could = imagine might be worth saving. Is 5% enough? 1%? How long would the chain s= tall if hash power dropped to 1%? In perfect competition the mining power costs per chain tends to equal the rewards offered by that chain, both in subsidy and transaction fees. For example, if chain A gets a reward 10 times as valuable as chain B's reward, then one should expect it to get 10 times more hashrate too. Of course, perfect competition is just a theoretical concept though.