From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WKBkR-0001u3-3Q for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 02 Mar 2014 19:08:27 +0000 Received: from mail-la0-f46.google.com ([209.85.215.46]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WKBkP-0004gX-8Q for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 02 Mar 2014 19:08:27 +0000 Received: by mail-la0-f46.google.com with SMTP id hr17so4027983lab.5 for ; Sun, 02 Mar 2014 11:08:18 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lmPec2Kty7U05wC6eAxzLIIvzJBpy5WKVkB/Z2P+gtg=; b=Js2Cl0Ug9A9bgN906RXrs4azIKzbQQShdlPs3EYyy+0OTBc0eOZ8Fs16LvDJXieafp X7FOsXXuWGI8XSAaNPe14jDF2Qs0zyXGih7Iev4dRbGpUlZOW6iQG2HH0vcPXjZ2ENeq 78om1Fyy5pw55u2uqo1Osm0NjCI8eQcOi2XXp02lkn9We+HbJpW8H1K+o4IlLbamHJJ8 Bd0jEqIPI1LHjlN3nI0c2/lrTWsuBoUktCu1jA12GoeGNPdu5zxTRkXmskTCf2ON9COf DPDvsiDGyvsO3+8xCUYh8DXpC7Pce/5UzfA+2a4gF8c1MDlvRC7Rw2XuIXde+c3nq/an hL1g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnm6yaafu4kdQaWKuVZ/eIxWO5fV4yxIVWn1ioJ8woD6BevnGuAHZu66GAYSZkOnAZqkBUw MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.132.102 with SMTP id ot6mr19179047lbb.27.1393786986617; Sun, 02 Mar 2014 11:03:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.62.136 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Mar 2014 11:03:06 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [108.193.6.130] In-Reply-To: <20140302180839.GQ3180@nl.grid.coop> References: <20140211175919.GV3180@nl.grid.coop> <20140214052159.GF31437@savin> <20140217054751.GY3180@nl.grid.coop> <20140228013719.GA5786@savin> <20140301174513.GP3180@nl.grid.coop> <20140302180839.GQ3180@nl.grid.coop> Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 20:03:06 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Tim=F3n?= To: Troy Benjegerdes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. X-Headers-End: 1WKBkP-0004gX-8Q Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Decentralized digital asset exchange with honest pricing and market depth X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 19:08:27 -0000 Again, the two best ways are here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_5:_Trading_across_chains https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D321228 But this is off-topic, Peter wasn't talking about cross-chain trade. On 3/2/14, Troy Benjegerdes wrote: > I'm asking for how to DEVELOP THE CODE so I can trade between two block > chains, and then I'm going to start trading cats and dogs and bits. > > Somewhere in trying to figure out the design spec we got caught up in > existential > concern about 'globally knowable and accurate price history', and I'm > telling you > it doesn't matter. > > I'm the customer and the developer, someone give me a clear design docume= nt > to > trade between two chains and I can write it, and then we can debate > improvements. > > > On Sat, Mar 01, 2014 at 01:33:25PM -0500, Jeff Garzik wrote: >> This is not bitcoin-philosophy, it's bitcoin-development. Existential >> philosophy belongs on IRC or the forums. >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Mark Friedenbach >> wrote: >> > Only if you view bitcoin as no more than a payment network. >> > >> > On Mar 1, 2014 10:24 AM, "Jeff Garzik" wrote: >> >> >> >> This is wandering far off-topic for this mailing list. >> >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Troy Benjegerdes >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > You can make the same argument against Bitcoin itself you know..= . >> >> >> > >> >> >> > A Bitmessage-like network would be trivial to front-run via a >> >> >> > sybil >> >> >> > attack. It's the fundemental problem with marketplaces - the dat= a >> >> >> > they're trying to publish has to be public. >> >> >> >> >> >> I don't see the Bitcoin analogy... >> >> >> Anyway, I still don't think the seller cares, if he sells at the >> >> >> price >> >> >> he was asking, what would he care about "front running" those >> >> >> parallel >> >> >> networks. >> >> >> I've seen many street markets without "public information" and the= y >> >> >> work just well. >> >> > >> >> > The spot price for ammonia fertilizer, refined gasoline at >> >> > terminals, >> >> > and price of tea in china are not 'public information', yet these >> >> > are >> >> > some of the largest traded commodities in the world, far exceeding >> >> > the drop in the bucket that all cryptocoin transactions make. >> >> > >> >> > I'd further argue that the *actual* price of corn (cash bid price a= t >> >> > elevators and ethanol plants) is not public information either. >> >> > There >> >> > is a great deal of money traded in collecting and then distributing >> >> > the >> >> > 'cleared price' information. Have a look at >> >> > >> >> > http://www.interquote.com/template.cfm?navgroup=3Daboutlist&urlcode= =3D12&view=3D1 >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> I don't think this will be a tragedy, because like we discussed >> >> >> >> on >> >> >> >> IRC, I don't think the primary goal of markets is price >> >> >> >> discovery, >> >> >> >> but >> >> >> >> trade itself. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> About historic data, the actual trades are always public, and >> >> >> >> some >> >> >> >> kind of "archivers" could collect and maintain old orders for >> >> >> >> historic >> >> >> >> bid and asks, etc. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > And again, how do you know that record is honest? Fact is withou= t >> >> >> > proof-of-publication you just don't. >> >> >> >> >> >> Well, the trades that appeared in the chain actually occurred. >> >> >> Buying to yourself at fake prices? Be careful, the miner could jus= t >> >> >> separate the order and fill it himself. Or anyone paying a higher >> >> >> fee, >> >> >> for that matter. >> >> > >> >> > You just made my long-term strategic argument for investing in my >> >> > own >> >> > mining hardware so I can be sure to trade reliably. >> >> > >> >> >> Again, you haven't addressed why the seller cares more about >> >> >> "accurate >> >> >> historic market data" than just his own fees and sell. >> >> >> >> >> >> > You mean a reverse nLockTime that makes a transaction invalid >> >> >> > after a >> >> >> > certain amount of time - that's dangerous in a reorg unfortunate= ly >> >> >> > as >> >> >> > it >> >> >> > can make transactions permenantly invalid. >> >> > >> >> > People who take money from buyers and sellers care most about >> >> > 'accurate >> >> > historic market data'. I just want to exchange my corn for e85, >> >> > fertilizer, >> >> > and electricity, and audit the code that runs accounting for the >> >> > exchange. >> >> > >> >> > I really don't give a shit if there is 'accurate historic market >> >> > data' >> >> > as >> >> > long as **MY** personal trade data is accurate and I got a good >> >> > enough >> >> > price, >> >> > and I know who I'm dealing with. >> >> > >> >> > I know someone smarter than me and with more money, market leverage= , >> >> > and >> >> > political connections **WILL** game the system and distort the >> >> > market >> >> > data >> >> > history so they can take more money from buyers and sellers without >> >> > actually >> >> > doing some usefull market function. >> >> > >> >> > As long as use buyers and sellers can see the code, and have a good >> >> > eye >> >> > for >> >> > knowing when someone's pushing the market around, we can just put >> >> > our >> >> > orders >> >> > in and relieve some speculators of their money. >> >> > >> >> > Just get me working code for cross-chain trades, and we'll work on >> >> > the >> >> > accurate historic data problem later. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- >> >> > Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer' >> >> > hozer@hozed.org >> >> > 7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul >> >> > grid.coop >> >> > >> >> > Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel, >> >> > nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------- >> >> > Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified >> >> > tool. >> >> > Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow >> >> > Analyzer >> >> > Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate >> >> > reports. >> >> > Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool. >> >> > >> >> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D126839071&iu=3D/414= 0/ostg.clktrk >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Bitcoin-development mailing list >> >> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Jeff Garzik >> >> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist >> >> BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- >> >> Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool= . >> >> Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer >> >> Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate >> >> reports. >> >> Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool. >> >> >> >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D126839071&iu=3D/4140/= ostg.clktrk >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >> >> >> -- >> Jeff Garzik >> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist >> BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer' > hozer@hozed.org > 7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul > grid.coop > > Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel, > nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool. > Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer > Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports. > Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D126839071&iu=3D/4140/ostg= .clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > --=20 Jorge Tim=F3n http://freico.in/