From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1VZQjt-0006Pj-C7 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 24 Oct 2013 19:38:37 +0000 Received: from mail-lb0-f169.google.com ([209.85.217.169]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1VZQjr-0002se-O1 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 24 Oct 2013 19:38:37 +0000 Received: by mail-lb0-f169.google.com with SMTP id o14so2349225lbi.28 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 2013 12:38:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=qCNZPSSmBqnMs+Ygo6hFGfs+Q9PWrRdUCeHefpOy/Hs=; b=NOTOzLPraSZ30CarxvI+MgDq3Oo7vjoM5t1qHIZZXxwN+Exup93jk+PvyNgKWjTBY8 wLCSa9SJ8uDKiYNQbjhYnTGLHK5EMnMvb07dFOmGKZxY6Lv4WsEb+dwO4jSmADhI/qiy VkONXt+kn4Iv5/vRs4AjgD8L/Zt43yYQkaaqsuq0sF4WH93yA9tT5Lr5edR/Qp+SNZsJ yyadhS9sJ2OdlJRwRjwb8QWKRkgg7LbmecCzl3HDzmAU4Fkh+RiRljIFPEFlTmTR0X5Q 1Yr1eLeGPuP3BtCuQQE8BgZ7PZcLeK7EBgoFNvut4UhNmr9GNUXBQoVLeSa5sQhZNOnz WK7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmequX0UA7rrAARw7sS3XuNpZeKXwkVnHmfc190sjZgXAwc85SblykG0r3zl8uqwcuetYy6 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.136.163 with SMTP id qb3mr2860873lbb.14.1382643146110; Thu, 24 Oct 2013 12:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.40.15 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Oct 2013 12:32:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [85.59.136.164] In-Reply-To: References: <796AC330-56EF-43D2-9935-5409824A4F33@godofgod.co.uk> <0F445FFE-FA1A-4A64-9A28-C734E744B5F7@godofgod.co.uk> <5231AF5E.8080903@gk2.sk> <15F27A88-53BF-4149-A8FF-282350312B92@godofgod.co.uk> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 21:32:26 +0200 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Tim=F3n?= To: slush Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: doubleclick.net] X-Headers-End: 1VZQjr-0002se-O1 Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] BIP0039 Mnemonic code for generating deterministic keys X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 19:38:37 -0000 This will probably sound stupid to most of you, but I'll say it anyway. The aim of mnemonics is to easily remember, isn't it? But the approach of removing "offensive words" is probably counterproductive to achieving that end. These words cause a greater emotional impact in our human moral psyches. If we were willing to use that fact in our advantage to optimize the "maximum unforgettableness" criterion, we should actually prefer the most generally offensive words in that list. Specially if they can combine with each other to produce more offensive results, basically the opposite of what we're doing. Isn't "legalize murder dirty jew" much easier to remember for most people than "sandwich house yellow cauliflower"? I guess that even if I'm right, this will be hard to explain to users and I'm not offering myself to do it. So I completely understand if the people working on this BIP simply ignore this "unforgettable wordlist" proposal like if it was just a bad taste joke. Using the sub-optimal (in terms of human memory) politically correct wordlist probably won't be that much worse. On 10/24/13, slush wrote: > We've reflected many comments about BIP39 wordlist from the community and= I > think the wordlist is much better now. Specifically we removed many of > theoretically offensive words as well as we implemented algorithm for > detecting words with similar characters (cat/eat) and we resolved these > duplicities. I'm now quite happy with the wordlist and I want to ask you > for next (final?) round of comments. > > >From other features, we added password protection of seed and seed > hardening (against bruteforcing) using Rijndael cipher. This has been > chosen because its blocksize can be 128, 192 or 256 bits, so it fits leng= th > of desired seeds. Also there are Rijndael implementations in every > language. Btw password protection has one interesting feature - plausible > deniability. It allows user to have one mnemonic and by using it with > different passwords, it will generate different BIP32 wallets.... (wink > wink) > > I want to be pretty clear that we need to close this topic somehow, becau= se > we want to use such algorithm in Trezor (which deadline is coming quick) > and also other wallet developers want to implement such algorithm into > clients to be compatible with Trezor. There were quite strict requirement= s > for such algorithm (like the possibility to convert mnemonic to seed as > well as seed to mnemonic) and I think we found a good solution. I'm wildl= y > asking you for constructive comments, but saying "it's a crap, I don't li= ke > it" won't help anything. > > Thanks, > slush > > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Matthew Mitchell < > matthewmitchell@godofgod.co.uk> wrote: > >> I removed some more but I haven't added enough back in. It was taking fa= r >> longer than expected so I gave up, but maybe someone else can try to add >> some more: >> >> >> https://github.com/MatthewLM/python-mnemonic/blob/master/mnemonic/wordli= st/english.txt >> >> On 12 Sep 2013, at 13:11, Pavol Rusnak wrote: >> >> > On 10/09/13 23:03, Matthew Mitchell wrote: >> >> Maybe it would have been better without the aggressive words? >> > >> > I revisited the wordlist and replaced around 67 words that can be >> > found offensive in some context. >> > >> > -- >> > Best Regards / S pozdravom, >> > >> > Pavol Rusnak >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ >> > How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments: >> > 1. Consolidate legacy IT systems to a single system of record for IT >> > 2. Standardize and globalize service processes across IT >> > 3. Implement zero-touch automation to replace manual, redundant tasks >> > >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D51271111&iu=3D/4140/ostg= .clktrk >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Bitcoin-development mailing list >> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ >> How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments: >> 1. Consolidate legacy IT systems to a single system of record for IT >> 2. Standardize and globalize service processes across IT >> 3. Implement zero-touch automation to replace manual, redundant tasks >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D51271111&iu=3D/4140/ostg= .clktrk >> _______________________________________________ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >> > --=20 Jorge Tim=F3n http://freico.in/