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[2a00:1450:4864:20::52f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5b1f17b1804b1-441b89ed3d4si180875e9.2.2025.05.06.04.48.49 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 06 May 2025 04:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of saintwenhao@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::52f as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::52f; Received: by mail-ed1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5f861d16622so9578695a12.2 for ; Tue, 06 May 2025 04:48:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvqS/8oYZaa6afltQVecoC9+YdhFSwHG1ooIDMqSW2x7P4NNILnsf+kmfQ2u+6 pQdNEadA4Pb7D+9k8OTK3Y48ujPD5QKOTUxEYPwj+Q/eTvI5eAiGCUDWwqDnF/AGJSsrJbrahVW K4NTAcFbmSK1l9d2JR5lBDkCz/CcSR318= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:f5a3:b0:ace:6fa7:5ed3 with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-ad1a48ba3admr1098969266b.4.1746532129145; Tue, 06 May 2025 04:48:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Saint Wenhao Date: Tue, 6 May 2025 13:48:37 +0200 X-Gm-Features: ATxdqUGI0ABH5GKUb0XGz0VVWaH54k1IMfGkM2tVf9K6mzsyfYC08mifT6kVA1Y Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Unbreaking testnet4 To: Greg Maxwell Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000025893d063476331f" X-Original-Sender: saintwenhao@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=VBajnbRj; spf=pass (google.com: domain of saintwenhao@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::52f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=saintwenhao@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --00000000000025893d063476331f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Some believed that resetting alone would discourage the conduct, I wonder, why many people keep saying "reset", when in practice, the old network is just "abandoned", and nothing is really "resetted". We would have a true reset, if a new testnet would lead to the full chain reorganization of the old chain. And this thing never happened, all previous testnets were just abandoned, as they were, and there were just not enough people, willing to keep old networks alive. > Hard fork in an ultramassive premine Well, if testnet4 will be "fixed" by doing a hard-fork on top of existing chain, then it would be equivalent to releasing testnet5 with "premine" of all testnet4 blocks. > so maybe an additional 21 million testnet btc? Using doublings, instead of halvings, is future-proof. Because then, if someone will continue using such test network forever, then later, it would release 21 million coins per block (which would be roughly equivalent to having a superchain, where you can peg one altcoin per 10 minutes). > if someone starts trading tnbct for money, whomever has the premine wallet should feel feel to sell into it what they can In practice, trading will start, when the first version of the official wallet will be released. It was the case in testnet4: when it was possible to mine new coins, only when you created your own binary from the source code, then there were only devs, and some skilled users. However, when it was officially supported in a new Core version, then it was quickly listed on centralized exchanges, and a lot of people dumped all of their test coins, and walked away with real BTCs. > the custodian of the premine will use it for the betterment of Bitcoin development, but if it's found that they're not-- solution is just another reset Which means, that Bitcoin developers will turn into altcoin developers, where they will release new altcoins called "testnets", only to dump all of them, and get BTCs out of it. wt., 6 maj 2025 o 01:40 Greg Maxwell napisa=C5=82(a): > On Tuesday, March 18, 2025 at 9:24:49=E2=80=AFPM UTC Antoine Poinsot wrot= e: > > Hi, > Testnet4 was rolled out a year ago to address the shortcomings of > testnet3. One of those shortcomings was the difficulty reset creating > havoc. [0] In spite of this a similar rule was adopted for testnet4. [1] = As > a result, testnet4 is similarly creating havoc. [2] > The goal of testnet is to mimic the Bitcoin mainnet. This is why it is > useful to have in addition to a more control testing environment such as > Signet. > The given rationale for a difficulty reset was to let developers > occasionally mine blocks on their laptop. But you cannot have your cake a= nd > eat it too: either the network is permissionless (PoW) or you assign > identities and privileges to some (Signet). By trying to do both at the > same time testnet4 created a loophole for abuse. As a result it failed on > both count: it neither mimics mainnet nor allows developers to mine activ= e > blocks on their laptop. > I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset rule from testnet4 > through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01. I picked a date well in the > future to minimize disruption. This leaves enough time for a patch to be > reviewed, merged, included in the next major Bitcoin Core release, > backported to previous releases and adopted by the infrastructure running > on testnet4. That should be enough for a test network. > > > Part of the root cause is violations of the gentleman's agreement to not > trade testnet coins for money, this results in predictable chaos with > people sniping the low difficulty blocks. Some believed that resetting > alone would discourage the conduct, but even if it had (it hadn't people > are selling them now) it was still likely that people would hoard up coin= s > just in case they became tradable in the future. > > There is a simple fix for this which doesn't result in an operating > difference from Bitcoin, just an economic one. Hard fork in an > ultramassive premine, as large as possible but what stays with existing > value overflow logic. (so maybe an additional 21 million testnet btc?). > > This also resolves the 'actual developers can't get coins problem' and if > someone starts trading tnbct for money, whomever has the premine wallet > should feel feel to sell into it what they can. Once they run out of coi= ns > it'll be time for another testnet reset. > > It may just not be possible to prevent degens from trading tn coins for > money, -- I mean consider the altcoins that some people spend money on :)= , > there is basically no low bar on how crappy you can make a cryptocurrency > where some scammer won't try to sell it to some fool. But what can't be > prevented can at least be turned into a benefit. > > Compared to things like just rigging the subsidy to continue forever-- > that's a bigger consensus change compared to bitcoin, and I think it > doesn't have the right incentive surface... some of the most popular > altcoins have endless inflation and people still use them. Instead you > want the failure mode to be "if you do trade this for money, most of the > profits end up going to support a developer or development, rather than > whatever jerk decided to trick people into paying for it". :) > > Feel free to suggest yourself as the custodian of the premine. Or it > could be some anonymous party if there is a concern that they'll be > pestered for handouts. There should be a general expectation that the > custodian of the premine will use it for the betterment of Bitcoin > development, but if it's found that they're not-- solution is just anoth= er > reset. :) > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/afb749b2-bdb8-4b2a-84ec-b703= a64ad765n%40googlegroups.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CACgYNO%2BfsUtx%3DF%3DZLZVq%3DFJfrgHv8NnKsjmoVS8LLVU78zjKDw%40mail.gmail.co= m. --00000000000025893d063476331f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Some believed that resetting alone would discourage t= he conduct,

I wonder, why many people keep saying "reset",= when in practice, the old network is just "abandoned", and nothi= ng is really "resetted". We would have a true reset, if a new tes= tnet would lead to the full chain reorganization of the old chain. And this= thing never happened, all previous testnets were just abandoned, as they w= ere, and there were just not enough people, willing to keep old networks al= ive.

> Hard fork in an ultramassive premine

Well, if testn= et4 will be "fixed" by doing a hard-fork on top of existing chain= , then it would be equivalent to releasing testnet5 with "premine"= ; of all testnet4 blocks.

> so maybe an additional 21 million tes= tnet btc?

Using doublings, instead of halvings, is future-proof. Bec= ause then, if someone will continue using such test network forever, then l= ater, it would release 21 million coins per block (which would be roughly e= quivalent to having a superchain, where you can peg one altcoin per 10 minu= tes).

> if someone starts trading tnbct for money, whomever has t= he premine wallet should feel feel to sell into it what they can

In = practice, trading will start, when the first version of the official wallet= will be released. It was the case in testnet4: when it was possible to min= e new coins, only when you created your own binary from the source code, th= en there were only devs, and some skilled users. However, when it was offic= ially supported in a new Core version, then it was quickly listed on centra= lized exchanges, and a lot of people dumped all of their test coins, and wa= lked away with real BTCs.

> the custodian of the premine will use= it for the betterment of Bitcoin development, =C2=A0but if it's found = that they're not-- solution is just another reset

Which means, t= hat Bitcoin developers will turn into altcoin developers, where they will r= elease new altcoins called "testnets", only to dump all of them, = and get BTCs out of it.

wt., 6 maj 2025 o 01:40=C2=A0G= reg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com> napisa=C5=82(a):
Hi,
Testnet4 was rolled out a year ago to address the shortcomings of testnet3. One of those shortcomings was the difficulty reset creating havoc. [0] In=20 spite of this a similar rule was adopted for testnet4. [1] As a result,=20 testnet4 is similarly creating havoc. [2]
The goal of testnet is=20 to mimic the Bitcoin mainnet. This is why it is useful to have in=20 addition to a more control testing environment such as Signet.
The given rationale for a difficulty reset was to let developers=20 occasionally mine blocks on their laptop. But you cannot have your cake=20 and eat it too: either the network is permissionless (PoW) or you assign identities and privileges to some (Signet). By trying to do both at the same time testnet4 created a loophole for abuse. As a result it failed=20 on both count: it neither mimics mainnet nor allows developers to mine=20 active blocks on their laptop.
I propose to fix this by removing=20 the difficulty reset rule from testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on=20 2026-01-01. I picked a date well in the future to minimize disruption.=20 This leaves enough time for a patch to be reviewed, merged, included in=20 the next major Bitcoin Core release, backported to previous releases and adopted by the infrastructure running on testnet4. That should be=20 enough for a test network.





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