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[2a00:1450:4864:20::52b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5b1f17b1804b1-45b588ab661si316895e9.0.2025.08.23.10.49.56 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 23 Aug 2025 10:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of saintwenhao@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::52b as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::52b; Received: by mail-ed1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-61c266e81caso1552382a12.3 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2025 10:49:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsE1P+UMa0qOIAXZpVSNQ3MM7cEhiaOXk/riMChxqcsQJQIqqZPVTZud4Wni+2 +oqiS8yjlZn5RlvaxEFewVYxWnoqxdzTrghiEtgpnapOiWyRgnjcGeQtJPz0aE35qsKrHZFjpCP LUVypOCKOakVgYo87mwKZigzlq84ACFvHzYmIjf+2ATdkG6joIVkEoHlpZjoXvrPRq2I4CqA2td tNSSfE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:26d2:b0:615:546a:932f with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-61c1b6f9dcdmr4495874a12.18.1755971396175; Sat, 23 Aug 2025 10:49:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4f35a82a-bedb-4d4d-9de2-2dbc340b18acn@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <4f35a82a-bedb-4d4d-9de2-2dbc340b18acn@googlegroups.com> From: Saint Wenhao Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2025 19:49:45 +0200 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXzh4Fuu7EcUZhqTDcIWRMhx4jtPi4piHAeYS7EV0gCBykVY3dTwLaiWdhs Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Introducing Hourglass To: Hunter Beast Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004e0a5d063d0bf310" X-Original-Sender: saintwenhao@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=SNxHKAi9; spf=pass (google.com: domain of saintwenhao@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::52b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=saintwenhao@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --0000000000004e0a5d063d0bf310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Relative to other approaches, Hourglass is also the most incentive-compatible with miners. If P2PK spends are limited to 1 per block, it is possible we will see potential bidding wars for these transactions at the fee level-- distributing some of the funds accrued through quantum retrieval to miners in the form of high fees. I have some good news: it can be done without any soft-forks, if needed. If the main goal is to restrict spendability of coins, by relying on Proof of Work, then it can be done, by using OP_SIZE on DER signatures, and combining it with OP_CHECKSEQUENCEVERIFY or OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY, as proposed by ertil here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D5551080.msg65724436#msg65724436 The simplest Script has this form, and can be used inside P2WSH: OP_SIZE OP_CHECKSEQUENCEVERIFY OP_DROP OP_CHECKSIG Then, everything is timelocked to at least 9 blocks, if secp256k1 and SHA-256 is fully broken, but it depends mainly on the size of the signature, and more realistic sizes are something around 70 bytes (or around 60 bytes, if someone wants to use half of the generator as R-value; some miners can do that, if they can be sure, that nobody will reorg their blocks, and if they are not worried about revealing their keys for some addresses). The granularity can be increased, for example by a factor of four, like it was in Signet faucet: https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/proof-of-work-based-signet-faucet/937 OP_SIZE OP_DUP OP_ADD OP_DUP OP_ADD OP_CHECKSEQUENCEVERIFY OP_DROP OP_CHECKSIG Then, realistically, things can be timelocked to something like 70*4=3D280 blocks, and users can decrease it by four blocks for each grinded byte in a given signature. If private key for every secp256k1 point is known, the size of the signature will decrease to something like 40 bytes, so things will be still timelocked to something around 160 blocks, and will still require SHA-256 grinding, to move coins faster. niedz., 4 maj 2025 o 11:12 Hunter Beast napisa=C5=82(a): > Trading volume is a good perspective to view this through, actually. If a= n > attacker decides to consolidate immediately, they could do so within just= a > couple hours and suppress the Bitcoin price for a long time. > > > 1.7 million Bitcoin represents possibly about 1 week of global trading > volumes. Even assuming it is 1-2 months of trading volumes, the market ca= n > absorb. > > Hourglass spreads that 1 week of trading volume over a minimum of 8 > months, possibly more. > > > Trying to manage the Bitcoin price via spending restrictions is a > terrible idea. > > While I generally agree with this sentence, I think P2PK coins are an > exceptional case. > > > In any case, the Bitcoin price routinely drops by upwards of 85%. It is > not a security concern. Price volatility is not a security. > > Price volatility absolutely impacts security, and this would be an > unprecedented event. We also haven't seen an 85% price drop in a long tim= e. > > On Saturday, May 3, 2025 at 5:55:28=E2=80=AFAM UTC-6 Francis Pouliot wrot= e: > >> >> Concept NACK. >> >> 1.7 million Bitcoin represents possibly about 1 week of global trading >> volumes. Even assuming it is 1-2 months of trading volumes, the market c= an >> absorb. >> >> Trying to manage the Bitcoin price via spending restrictions is a >> terrible idea. >> >> In any case, the Bitcoin price routinely drops by upwards of 85%. It is >> not a security concern. Price volatility is not a security. >> On Tuesday, April 29, 2025 at 5:08:16=E2=80=AFPM UTC-6 Hunter Beast wrot= e: >> >>> This is a proposal to mitigate against potential mass liquidation of >>> P2PK funds. The specification is pretty simple, but the motivation and >>> justification for it is a bit longer. >>> >>> >>> https://github.com/cryptoquick/bips/blob/hourglass/bip-hourglass.mediaw= iki >>> >>> Feedback welcome! >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/4f35a82a-bedb-4d4d-9de2-2dbc= 340b18acn%40googlegroups.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CACgYNOJxNHQfTQdzz8uzd0S9erwF27ND0ASMWxxUqGBkKy%2BVVg%40mail.gmail.com. --0000000000004e0a5d063d0bf310 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Relative to other approaches, Hourglass is also the m= ost incentive-compatible with miners. If P2PK spends are limited to 1 per b= lock, it is possible we will see potential bidding wars for these transacti= ons at the fee level-- distributing some of the funds accrued through quant= um retrieval to miners in the form of high fees.

I have some good ne= ws: it can be done without any soft-forks, if needed. If the main goal is t= o restrict spendability of coins, by relying on Proof of Work, then it can = be done, by using OP_SIZE on DER signatures, and combining it with OP_CHECK= SEQUENCEVERIFY or OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY, as proposed by ertil here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D5551080.msg65724436#msg65724= 436

The simplest Script has this form, and can be used inside P2= WSH:

OP_SIZE OP_CHECKSEQUENCEVERIFY OP_DROP <pubkey> OP_CHECKS= IG

Then, everything is timelocked to at least 9 blocks, if secp256k1= and SHA-256 is fully broken, but it depends mainly on the size of the sign= ature, and more realistic sizes are something around 70 bytes (or around 60= bytes, if someone wants to use half of the generator as R-value; some mine= rs can do that, if they can be sure, that nobody will reorg their blocks, a= nd if they are not worried about revealing their keys for some addresses). = The granularity can be increased, for example by a factor of four, like it = was in Signet faucet: https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/proof-of-work-based-= signet-faucet/937

OP_SIZE OP_DUP OP_ADD OP_DUP OP_ADD OP_CHECKSE= QUENCEVERIFY OP_DROP <pubkey> OP_CHECKSIG

Then, realistically,= things can be timelocked to something like 70*4=3D280 blocks, and users ca= n decrease it by four blocks for each grinded byte in a given signature. If= private key for every secp256k1 point is known, the size of the signature = will decrease to something like 40 bytes, so things will be still timelocke= d to something around 160 blocks, and will still require SHA-256 grinding, = to move coins faster.

niedz., 4 maj 2025 o 11:12=C2=A0= Hunter Beast <hunter@surmount.systems> napisa=C5=82(a):
Trading volume is a good pers= pective to view this through, actually. If an attacker decides to consolida= te immediately, they could do so within just a couple hours and suppress th= e Bitcoin price for a long time.

>=C2=A01.7 million Bitcoin repre= sents possibly about 1 week of global trading volumes. Even assuming it is = 1-2 months of trading volumes, the market can absorb.

Hourglass spre= ads that 1 week of trading volume over a minimum of 8 months, possibly more= .

>=C2=A0Trying to manage the Bitcoin price via spending restrict= ions is a terrible idea.

While I generally agree with this sentence,= I think P2PK coins are an exceptional case.

>=C2=A0In any case, = the Bitcoin price routinely drops by upwards of 85%. It is not a security c= oncern. Price volatility is not a security.

Price volatility absolut= ely impacts security, and this would be an unprecedented event. We also hav= en't seen an 85% price drop in a long time.

On Saturday, May 3, 2025 at 5= :55:28=E2=80=AFAM UTC-6 Francis Pouliot wrote:

Concept NACK.

1.7 million Bitco= in represents possibly about 1 week of global trading volumes. Even assumin= g it is 1-2 months of trading volumes, the market can absorb.

Trying= to manage the Bitcoin price via spending restrictions is a terrible idea.<= br>
In any case, the Bitcoin price routinely drops by upwards of 85%. It= is not a security concern. Price volatility is not a security.
On Tuesday, Apri= l 29, 2025 at 5:08:16=E2=80=AFPM UTC-6 Hunter Beast wrote:
This is a proposal to mitigate a= gainst potential mass liquidation of P2PK funds. The specification is prett= y simple, but the motivation and justification for it is a bit longer.
=

Feedback = welcome!

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