From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WJp0F-0008VC-9u for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 18:51:15 +0000 Received: from mail-qg0-f43.google.com ([209.85.192.43]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WJp0D-0004cO-Cy for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 18:51:15 +0000 Received: by mail-qg0-f43.google.com with SMTP id f51so6386764qge.2 for ; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 10:51:07 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=2s/kq0rltkBw5UZH0qCcObfE2U5Cww5T7quPUglvPhU=; b=HOCdxQm2mbWuUYKB+yTt9rnbW9vwSPVfj10ln7+fGnK6716luWPnJ2lUZf9fOZCr3N v/0DKWkCDQQcnmDzFNloFeCjYHsTR9AojjbbGOcAqVPBu1N5hGDy9v8AfBfiUfWRGLG8 Vt6vaIiUlyoC0RAi6dh/ztDfElxsl/09VKB/mUPJ/isM5bcXo3pYfX8vNoyrs6bW0bvj 22hRwTPIC4oWYnD8FRSevaarN7dS8wZI+vqW+gpgZRy6WYBnFLfyqMrM82ziiOJt6GG/ dAZfpiLGY6Vw2LoEJTb5MXx/8CH0/SM+EAYcVzW9Pf0Bw/BNE1r4AhHr1hAXmPB3sxjp lISw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnQwIZNbNle7d8gCqNk9cyYy8CGYTW8z3Ys92Ktu58BVRcZPfPxZSCcZ490fyfazWn7lmt5 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.47.101 with SMTP id l92mr12218830qga.9.1393698502353; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 10:28:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.106.165 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 10:28:22 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [70.197.6.187] Received: by 10.140.106.165 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 10:28:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20140209180458.GB20126@savin> <20140209204434.GA11488@savin> <20140210193247.GC17359@savin> <20140211175919.GV3180@nl.grid.coop> <20140214052159.GF31437@savin> <20140217054751.GY3180@nl.grid.coop> <20140228013719.GA5786@savin> <20140301174513.GP3180@nl.grid.coop> Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 10:28:22 -0800 Message-ID: From: Mark Friedenbach To: Jeff Garzik Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1640e2863b604f38fb8ce X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [209.85.192.43 listed in list.dnswl.org] 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Headers-End: 1WJp0D-0004cO-Cy Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Decentralized digital asset exchange with honest pricing and market depth X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2014 18:51:15 -0000 --001a11c1640e2863b604f38fb8ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Only if you view bitcoin as no more than a payment network. On Mar 1, 2014 10:24 AM, "Jeff Garzik" wrote: > This is wandering far off-topic for this mailing list. > > On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Troy Benjegerdes wrote: > >> > You can make the same argument against Bitcoin itself you know... > >> > > >> > A Bitmessage-like network would be trivial to front-run via a sybil > >> > attack. It's the fundemental problem with marketplaces - the data > >> > they're trying to publish has to be public. > >> > >> I don't see the Bitcoin analogy... > >> Anyway, I still don't think the seller cares, if he sells at the price > >> he was asking, what would he care about "front running" those parallel > >> networks. > >> I've seen many street markets without "public information" and they > >> work just well. > > > > The spot price for ammonia fertilizer, refined gasoline at terminals, > > and price of tea in china are not 'public information', yet these are > > some of the largest traded commodities in the world, far exceeding > > the drop in the bucket that all cryptocoin transactions make. > > > > I'd further argue that the *actual* price of corn (cash bid price at > > elevators and ethanol plants) is not public information either. There > > is a great deal of money traded in collecting and then distributing the > > 'cleared price' information. Have a look at > > > http://www.interquote.com/template.cfm?navgroup=aboutlist&urlcode=12&view=1 > > > > > >> >> I don't think this will be a tragedy, because like we discussed on > >> >> IRC, I don't think the primary goal of markets is price discovery, > but > >> >> trade itself. > >> >> > >> >> About historic data, the actual trades are always public, and some > >> >> kind of "archivers" could collect and maintain old orders for > historic > >> >> bid and asks, etc. > >> > > >> > And again, how do you know that record is honest? Fact is without > >> > proof-of-publication you just don't. > >> > >> Well, the trades that appeared in the chain actually occurred. > >> Buying to yourself at fake prices? Be careful, the miner could just > >> separate the order and fill it himself. Or anyone paying a higher fee, > >> for that matter. > > > > You just made my long-term strategic argument for investing in my own > > mining hardware so I can be sure to trade reliably. > > > >> Again, you haven't addressed why the seller cares more about "accurate > >> historic market data" than just his own fees and sell. > >> > >> > You mean a reverse nLockTime that makes a transaction invalid after a > >> > certain amount of time - that's dangerous in a reorg unfortunately as > it > >> > can make transactions permenantly invalid. > > > > People who take money from buyers and sellers care most about 'accurate > > historic market data'. I just want to exchange my corn for e85, > fertilizer, > > and electricity, and audit the code that runs accounting for the > exchange. > > > > I really don't give a shit if there is 'accurate historic market data' as > > long as **MY** personal trade data is accurate and I got a good enough > price, > > and I know who I'm dealing with. > > > > I know someone smarter than me and with more money, market leverage, and > > political connections **WILL** game the system and distort the market > data > > history so they can take more money from buyers and sellers without > actually > > doing some usefull market function. > > > > As long as use buyers and sellers can see the code, and have a good eye > for > > knowing when someone's pushing the market around, we can just put our > orders > > in and relieve some speculators of their money. > > > > Just get me working code for cross-chain trades, and we'll work on the > > accurate historic data problem later. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer' > hozer@hozed.org > > 7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul > grid.coop > > > > Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel, > > nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool. > > Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer > > Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports. > > Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool. > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > > _______________________________________________ > > Bitcoin-development mailing list > > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > > > -- > Jeff Garzik > Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist > BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool. > Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer > Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports. > Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool. > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > --001a11c1640e2863b604f38fb8ce Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Only if you view bitcoin as no more than a payment network.<= /p>

On Mar 1, 2014 10:24 AM, "Jeff Garzik"= <jgarzik@bitpay.com> wrote= :
This is wandering far off-topic for this mailing list.

On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Troy Benjegerdes <hozer@hozed.org> wrote:
>> > You can make the same argument against Bitcoin itself you kno= w...
>> >
>> > A Bitmessage-like network would be trivial to front-run via a= sybil
>> > attack. It's the fundemental problem with marketplaces - = the data
>> > they're trying to publish has to be public.
>>
>> I don't see the Bitcoin analogy...
>> Anyway, I still don't think the seller cares, if he sells at t= he price
>> he was asking, what would he care about "front running" = those parallel
>> networks.
>> I've seen many street markets without "public information= " and they
>> work just well.
>
> The spot price for ammonia fertilizer, refined gasoline at terminals,<= br> > and price of tea in china are not 'public information', yet th= ese are
> some of the largest traded commodities in the world, far exceeding
> the drop in the bucket that all cryptocoin transactions make.
>
> I'd further argue that the *actual* price of corn (cash bid price = at
> elevators and ethanol plants) is not public information either. There<= br> > is a great deal of money traded in collecting and then distributing th= e
> 'cleared price' information. Have a look at
> http://www.interquote.com= /template.cfm?navgroup=3Daboutlist&urlcode=3D12&view=3D1
>
>
>> >> I don't think this will be a tragedy, because like we= discussed on
>> >> IRC, I don't think the primary goal of markets is pri= ce discovery, but
>> >> trade itself.
>> >>
>> >> About historic data, the actual trades are always public,= and some
>> >> kind of "archivers" could collect and maintain = old orders for historic
>> >> bid and asks, etc.
>> >
>> > And again, how do you know that record is honest? Fact is wit= hout
>> > proof-of-publication you just don't.
>>
>> Well, the trades that appeared in the chain actually occurred.
>> Buying to yourself at fake prices? Be careful, the miner could jus= t
>> separate the order and fill it himself. Or anyone paying a higher = fee,
>> for that matter.
>
> You just made my long-term strategic argument for investing in my own<= br> > mining hardware so I can be sure to trade reliably.
>
>> Again, you haven't addressed why the seller cares more about &= quot;accurate
>> historic market data" than just his own fees and sell.
>>
>> > You mean a reverse nLockTime that makes a transaction invalid= after a
>> > certain amount of time - that's dangerous in a reorg unfo= rtunately as it
>> > can make transactions permenantly invalid.
>
> People who take money from buyers and sellers care most about 'acc= urate
> historic market data'. I just want to exchange my corn for e85, fe= rtilizer,
> and electricity, and audit the code that runs accounting for the excha= nge.
>
> I really don't give a shit if there is 'accurate historic mark= et data' as
> long as **MY** personal trade data is accurate and I got a good enough= price,
> and I know who I'm dealing with.
>
> I know someone smarter than me and with more money, market leverage, a= nd
> political connections **WILL** game the system and distort the market = data
> history so they can take more money from buyers and sellers without ac= tually
> doing some usefull market function.
>
> As long as use buyers and sellers can see the code, and have a good ey= e for
> knowing when someone's pushing the market around, we can just put = our orders
> in and relieve some speculators of their money.
>
> Just get me working code for cross-chain trades, and we'll work on= the
> accurate historic data problem later.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= ------
> Troy Benjegerdes =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 'da hozer' =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0hozer@hozed.org
> 7 elements =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::= soul =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0grid.coop
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by t= he barrel,
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0nor try buy a hacker who makes money= by the megahash
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= --------
> Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool.=
> Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer<= br> > Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports= .
> Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool= .
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.ne= t/gampad/clk?id=3D126839071&iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-d= evelopment@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitco= in-development



--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://bitpay.com/

---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool.
Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer
Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports.
Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gam= pad/clk?id=3D126839071&iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-develo= pment@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment
--001a11c1640e2863b604f38fb8ce--