From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TfZmK-0002Sf-IM for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 17:26:00 +0000 Received: from mail-qa0-f54.google.com ([209.85.216.54]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1TfZmE-0007d1-TB for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 17:26:00 +0000 Received: by mail-qa0-f54.google.com with SMTP id j15so1689681qaq.13 for ; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 09:25:49 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=UqoFTzPag7LTMddn6qJSi/TL8vHcKdG6zogB6JIwk+s=; b=MkwOi+KloyCkDnevayvH2Bdn/qqli3ALa4VdB0R656T5K/hRq+/4hNj9N+QObUhXOK WOmjvn/TCgzamcUYZ/na4qjWraWRoshnLg9n+1rt0AzamDdXQLwOQxu8CRTUNgVB5ssz /iU1zMdhKelGDHE80Ym4scUIhhZaDNbVr2yZaJJGDeS19mebta7bHPvWf1hgU80v1BUq Mh6u19wPzAHpSqIVOxtTZW/asokuSoaK5SUZxdNcOWm73WJx+rNqgY2OPR8/FhMufvQ6 pRfz3JQv1Ok+KklrGKMIw46u4qe3yuyW0839IY81WNjSUiJDGVCXkGj8LwZ4NxbEYmH+ JqPw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.49.103.162 with SMTP id fx2mr20384787qeb.1.1354554133808; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 09:02:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.120.4 with HTTP; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 09:02:13 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [50.0.36.26] In-Reply-To: <80648682-E34A-455E-B34A-6BC24652C3EA@ceptacle.com> References: <80648682-E34A-455E-B34A-6BC24652C3EA@ceptacle.com> Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 09:02:13 -0800 Message-ID: From: Mark Friedenbach To: Michael Gronager Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b2e79c8f986b404cff5b55e X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlq9Ab9fur1HB6jOkHE65Mj1QVvlB/UwKmCHHp/5fZdC+MHlzlDg2rYm2fv4A53PgFbHCEK X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Headers-End: 1TfZmE-0007d1-TB Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Chain dust mitigation: Demurrage based Chain Vacuuming X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 17:26:00 -0000 --047d7b2e79c8f986b404cff5b55e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 My only comment is that it should be called escheatment, not demurrage ;) It's relation to demurrage is only that it might be desirable to garbage collect decayed bit-dust. We looked at it early-on in the Freicoin development, but rejected it as a possibility due to reasons others have mentioned, even though we were starting from a hard-fork position. On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 3:19 AM, Michael Gronager wrote: > (Also posted on the forum: > https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128900.0) > > The amount of "dust" in the block chain is getting large and it is growing > all the time. Currently 11% of unspent tx outputs (UTXO) are of 1Satoshi > (0.00000001BTC), 32% is less than 0.0001BTC and 60% is less than 0.001BTC. > (Thanks to Jan for digging out these numbers!) > > This means that a huge part of the block chain is used for essentially > nothing - e.g. the sum of the 11% is worth roughly 2 US cents ! > > The main source for these 1 Satoshi payouts is Sahtoshi Dice. And nothing > wrong with that, however, we should work on ensuring that too many too > small payments will not kill the size of the blockchain in the end - > further, they are essentially too small to be included in other transaction > as the added fee will often make it more expensive to remove them. Hence, > there is no incentive to get rid of them. > > I have an idea for a possible mitigation of this problem - introduction of > demurrage - not as in it normal meaning as a percentage over time (see: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency) btw, this has also been > tried in freicoin), but as a mean to recycle pennies over time. The > proposal is simple - UTXOs age out if not re-transacted - the smaller the > coin the faster the aging: > 1-99 Satoshi: lives for 210 blocks > 100-9999 Satoshi: lives for 2100 blocks > 10000-999999 Satoshi: lives for 21000 blocks > 1000000-99999999 Satoshi: lives for 210000 blocks > > Only amounts above 1BTC lives forever - (or we could even impose aging on > those too..) > > The aged coins are simply included in the block mining reward, creating > another incentive for miners. Further, if we include all coins in this > recycle scheme coins will never be lost forever. > > This scheme will impose some lifetimes also on e.g. colored coins (hence > you need to use a certain amount to borrow space on the blockchain for the > time needed, or simply transact them). > > If you like this I would be happy to write it into a BIP. > > Thoughts ? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Keep yourself connected to Go Parallel: > BUILD Helping you discover the best ways to construct your parallel > projects. > http://goparallel.sourceforge.net > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > --047d7b2e79c8f986b404cff5b55e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My only comment is that it should be called escheatment, not demurrage ;)
It's relation to demurrage is only that it might be desirable to = garbage collect decayed bit-dust. We looked at it early-on in the Freicoin = development, but rejected it as a possibility due to reasons others have me= ntioned, even though we were starting from a hard-fork position.


On Mon, Dec 3= , 2012 at 3:19 AM, Michael Gronager <gronager@ceptacle.com> wrote:
(Also posted on the forum: https://bit= cointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D128900.0)

The amount of "dust" in the block chain is getting large and it i= s growing all the time. Currently 11% of unspent tx outputs (UTXO) are of 1= Satoshi (0.00000001BTC), 32% is less than 0.0001BTC and 60% is less than 0.= 001BTC. (Thanks to Jan for digging out these numbers!)

This means that a huge part of the block chain is used for essentially noth= ing - e.g. the sum of the 11% is worth roughly 2 US cents !

The main source for these 1 Satoshi payouts is Sahtoshi Dice. And nothing w= rong with that, however, we should work on ensuring that too many too small= payments will not kill the size of the blockchain in the end - further, th= ey are essentially too small to be included in other transaction as the add= ed fee will often make it more expensive to remove them. Hence, there is no= incentive to get rid of them.

I have an idea for a possible mitigation of this problem - introduction of = demurrage - not as in it normal meaning as a percentage over time (see:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency) btw, this has also b= een tried in freicoin), but as a mean to recycle pennies over time. The pro= posal is simple - UTXOs age out if not re-transacted - the smaller the coin= the faster the aging:
1-99 Satoshi: lives for 210 blocks
100-9999 Satoshi: lives for 2100 blocks
10000-999999 Satoshi: lives for 21000 blocks
1000000-99999999 Satoshi: lives for 210000 blocks

Only amounts above 1BTC lives forever - (or we could even impose aging on t= hose too..)

The aged coins are simply included in the block mining reward, creating ano= ther incentive for miners. Further, if we include all coins in this recycle= scheme coins will never be lost forever.

This scheme will impose some lifetimes also on e.g. colored coins (hence yo= u need to use a certain amount to borrow space on the blockchain for the ti= me needed, or simply transact them).

If you like this I would be happy to write it into a BIP.

Thoughts ?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
Keep yourself connected to Go Parallel:
BUILD Helping you discover the best ways to construct your parallel project= s.
http://gopa= rallel.sourceforge.net
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-develo= pment@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment

--047d7b2e79c8f986b404cff5b55e--