From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76DAECBB for ; Fri, 15 Dec 2017 18:20:37 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-ot0-f180.google.com (mail-ot0-f180.google.com [74.125.82.180]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84AF9E5 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 2017 18:20:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ot0-f180.google.com with SMTP id p3so8525669oti.5 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 2017 10:20:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=TVGkfsby2krCOYxSny8qTXerOET3lGhj44iEN6nsx/E=; b=XAeHvk2iqTmlckZlvklBzRbhOSN6SZB1kAZWD7Zl1FwL4kOhwqz8yBZbYbHigDKk73 QRj32ONG4diez0ZwPTMTUzXacJ/YKwhdaF1qk+KqxlwY3oZZPfoyC5hgo97bjB+dl4tg O4u2f1YICvbaD34BVCANh4J4MQQUWlkDiNlPlwNRxkm/VtbsXUJXAmap5Si5ui05+R8I JHq47yhz5RFSIUMhLMW1kF7vWw5tuFZ+43pE3A6B1DMduwCni224ktBFtnpGId6wgXIu w2tI+vTncFkYxT0m9eDK1PW4up2klxkpxzvgNGTpwecxoXjHeKRO5djqoJFAFyW90vBG rZvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=TVGkfsby2krCOYxSny8qTXerOET3lGhj44iEN6nsx/E=; b=ZsEmr12pMmm6Ex2IUYpmcqSTW9lVbHVX3VZpOQUVdfT7Fgv/y/CIZoqvO/QGBrqO6l aG2os+e0RoIOjFzR5pcUMkUlqspvfQBAK3gWYCdW5roFfXNkjCr3QRE+tgSV94+8+g6U 5UzbnD88D6aYEGS6L6i8f5bF7pQj2ZzOm46koUj6GLvrGg2eaJDt4KBNut7gihu7i52+ 4BHjxweryeG24Ds8icrv40b7YxFct63bRPgvShwboE9+DWNyuvjb+Qe+ohsQJjJUU2qI YDeTwKhL2cJAWcwRebTTmopmukb7Fha7B4zs8ZdnzHacoBbdTFTsmJjXoyifKnjqqrMZ DoHA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mIqhJ4otmcTuJUo63/7JwpKhoiBJAxNP9rP+LihVJyK1FqAmhIF rFV3eyxoz2THMTVoa9/apeX//uFxLCB6oxxQkheUFr2j X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBovkNMTabc3SGsgbLU8StwSLePqG+J0bxii/T5niKF3yheVwD0xfs0eXJlJut5eds3idRidhfAumP2Qu8/uHKUk= X-Received: by 10.157.39.45 with SMTP id r42mr9853815ota.71.1513362035801; Fri, 15 Dec 2017 10:20:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.15.66 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Dec 2017 10:20:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20171213213607.ijlvqwpdaokucgi6@fedora-23-dvm> From: Moral Agent Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 13:20:34 -0500 Message-ID: To: Marcel Jamin , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1149d8c88f814c0560650e73" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 18:23:31 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposal: Utilization of bits denomination X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 18:20:37 -0000 --001a1149d8c88f814c0560650e73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Bitcoin (BTC), Millibitcoin (mBTC) and Microbitcoin (=C2=B5BTC) is the >co= rrect< approach. It's tidy, systematic and precise. The SI system is great, but it's nice if you pick a base unit that is easy for intuition to comprehend. It is a fact that I weigh approximately .000,000,000,000,000,000,000,014 Earth masses. If we arrived at rough consensus that this was a cumbersome way to express the mass of a human, we might then find a group of people making the superficially sensible proposal that we use SI prefixes and say I weigh 14 yoctoearths. This would be tidy, systematic and precise, but that might not be enough to make it the best option. It might be even better to choose a base unit that human intuition can make sense of, and THEN add prefixes as needed. I dislike the name "bits" but I think 100 satoshis does make a nice base unit. If we cannot crowdsource a more inspiring label we may be stuck with bits just due to linguistic network effects. -Ethan On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 1:27 AM, Marcel Jamin via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > I think one could make the argument that the only people who talk > about and understand 24 bit audio or 256 bit cryptography are the ones > who can tell the difference very easily. > > To me, your example seems to try hard to make the case for a problem > that won't exist in reality. > > Bitcoin (BTC), Millibitcoin (mBTC) and Microbitcoin (=C2=B5BTC) is the > >correct< approach. It's tidy, systematic and precise. But that won't > stop people from using something that's easier to deal with as I just > had to google the =C2=B5 character again. > > Let's also keep in mind that Coinbase has been using "bits" as the > default for over 2 years now: > https://blog.coinbase.com/bits-is-the-new-default-and- > all-new-users-get-100-bits-for-free-9165f757594b > > Just from a linguistic standpoint, chances are we'll end up with bits > anyway. Why fight it? We don't have a SI prefix educational mandate. > > Marcel > > On 14 December 2017 at 23:01, Natanael wrote: > > > > Reposting /u/BashCo's post on reddit here, for visibility: > > > > ---8<--------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> Before anyone says 'bits' are too confusing because it's a computer > >> science term, here's a list of homonyms > >> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_true_homonyms] that you use > every > >> day. Homonyms are fine because our brains are able to interpret langua= ge > >> based on context, so it's a non-argument. > > > > > > This ignores the fact that there exists multiple meanings of bits *with= in > > the same context*, and that beginners likely can't tell them apart. > > > > Feel free to try it yourself - talk about Bitcoin "bits" of a particula= r > > value with somebody who doesn't understand Bitcoin. Then explain that > the > > cryptography uses 256 bit keys. I would be surprised if you could find > > somebody who would not be confused by that. > > > > Let's say a website says a song is 24 bits. Was that 24 bit audio > resolution > > or 24 bit price? Somebody writes about 256 bit keys, are that their siz= e > or > > value? > > > > You guys here can probably tell the difference. Can everybody...? Bits > will > > cause confusion, because plenty of people will not be able to tell thes= e > > apart. They will not know WHEN to apply one definition or the other. > > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin/comments/24m3nb/_/ch8gua7 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --001a1149d8c88f814c0560650e73 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Bitcoin (BTC), Millib= itcoin (mBTC) and Microbitcoin (=C2=B5BTC) is the=C2=A0>correct< approach. It's tidy, systematic a= nd precise.

The SI system is great, but it'= s nice if you pick a base unit that is easy for intuition to comprehend.

It is a fact that I weigh approximately .000,00= 0,000,000,000,000,000,014 Earth masses. If we arrived at rough consensus th= at this was a cumbersome way to express the mass of a human, we might then = find a group of people making the superficially sensible proposal that we u= se SI prefixes and say I weigh 14 yoctoearths. This would be tidy, systemat= ic and precise, but that might not be enough to make it the best option.=C2= =A0It might be even better to choos= e a base unit that human intuition can make sense of, and THEN add prefixes= as needed.

I dislike the name "bits&quo= t; but I think 100 satoshis does make a nice base unit. If we cannot crowds= ource a more inspiring label we may be stuck with bits just due to linguist= ic=C2=A0network effects.
=
-Ethan
<= div>


On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 1:27 AM, Marcel Jamin via bi= tcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org&g= t; wrote:
I think one could make t= he argument that the only people who talk
about and understand 24 bit audio or 256 bit cryptography are the ones
who can tell the difference very easily.

To me, your example seems to try hard to make the case for a problem
that won't exist in reality.

Bitcoin (BTC), Millibitcoin (mBTC) and Microbitcoin (=C2=B5BTC) is the
>correct< approach. It's tidy, systematic and precise. But that w= on't
stop people from using something that's easier to deal with as I just had to google the =C2=B5 character again.

Let's also keep in mind that Coinbase has been using "bits" a= s the
default for over 2 years now:
https://blog.coinbase.com/bits-is-the-new-default-and-all-new-u= sers-get-100-bits-for-free-9165f757594b

Just from a linguistic standpoint, chances are we'll end up with bits anyway. Why fight it? We don't have a SI prefix educational mandate.
Marcel

On 14 December 2017 at 23:01, Natanael <natanael.l@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Reposting /u/BashCo's post on reddit here, for visibility:
>
> ---8<---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>> Before anyone says 'bits' are too confusing because it'= ;s a computer
>> science term, here's a list of homonyms
>> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List= _of_true_homonyms] that you use every
>> day. Homonyms are fine because our brains are able to interpret la= nguage
>> based on context, so it's a non-argument.
>
>
> This ignores the fact that there exists multiple meanings of bits *wit= hin
> the same context*, and that beginners likely can't tell them apart= .
>
> Feel free to try it yourself - talk about Bitcoin "bits" of = a particular
> value with somebody who=C2=A0 doesn't understand Bitcoin. Then exp= lain that the
> cryptography uses 256 bit keys. I would be surprised if you could find=
> somebody who would not be confused by that.
>
> Let's say a website says a song is 24 bits. Was that 24 bit audio = resolution
> or 24 bit price? Somebody writes about 256 bit keys, are that their si= ze or
> value?
>
> You guys here can probably tell the difference. Can everybody...? Bits= will
> cause confusion, because plenty of people will not be able to tell the= se
> apart. They will not know WHEN to apply one definition or the other. >
> https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin= /comments/24m3nb/_/ch8gua7
>
>
_______________________= ________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.= linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org= /mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

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