From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1YfsqP-0006J9-GG for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 08 Apr 2015 16:28:49 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.192.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.192.52; envelope-from=kinoshitajona@gmail.com; helo=mail-qg0-f52.google.com; Received: from mail-qg0-f52.google.com ([209.85.192.52]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1YfsqN-0003av-OT for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 08 Apr 2015 16:28:49 +0000 Received: by qgeb100 with SMTP id b100so31341665qge.3 for ; Wed, 08 Apr 2015 09:28:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.46.7 with SMTP id j7mr30118228qga.12.1428510522304; Wed, 08 Apr 2015 09:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.28.163 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Apr 2015 09:28:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5524D347.4040507@maza.club> Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 01:28:42 +0900 Message-ID: From: =?UTF-8?B?5pyo44OO5LiL44GY44KH44Gq?= To: William Swanson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113959bc3d78ee0513390625 X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (kinoshitajona[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1YfsqN-0003av-OT Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Request For Discussion / BIP number - Multi-Currency Hierarchy For Use In Multisignature Deterministic Wallets X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 16:28:49 -0000 --001a113959bc3d78ee0513390625 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 William, I believe the reasoning for this is stated in the Coin Type section. "Public derivation is used so that cosigners need only know one of each other's public keys, rather than needing to distribute public keys for each coin." BIP44 has a coin level, but it's a private derived level, so cosigners would not be able to generate multiple crypto currencies of each others' without giving each other n xpubs where n is the number of currencies shared. This new proposal basically sticks coin type on the public derivation side of things so that I could generate litecoin or darkcoin multisigs without your permission... Kefkius, This BIP seems like a good fit for multi-currency wallets based on multisig. So kudos for putting it in writing. However, I don't know if this is really a BIP thing. It's not improving Bitcoin (Bitcoin Improvement Proposal... remember?), in fact, by definition it is improving altcoin usability. For that reason alone I will say I disagree for a BIP for this. - Jona 2015-04-08 16:46 GMT+09:00 William Swanson : > > It's not really clear why this is better than BIP 44 as it already > stands. You have the same fields, but they are just in a different > order. Couldn't you just use the existing BIP 44 hierarchy, but add > the convention that "wallet/account N" is the same wallet in each > supported currency? > > For example, if I have a wallet called "business expenses", which > happens to be wallet m / 44' / 0' / 5', for Bitcoin, then the same > wallet would be m / 44' / 3' / 5' for Dogecoin, and m / 44' / 2' / 5' > for Litecoin. > > I am trying to think of examples where your proposal is better than > BIP 44, but I can't think of any. Even backup recovery works fine. I > assume that your idea is to continue iterating over the different > wallet indices as long as you are finding funds in *any* currency. > Well, you can still do that with BIP 44. The fields are in a different > order, but that doesn't affect the algorithm in any way. > > Maybe you have some deeper insight I'm not seeing, but if so, you need > to clearly explain that in your motivation section. The current > explanation, "This limits the possible implementations of > multi-currency, multisignature wallets," is pretty vauge. Also, there > is nothing in this spec that addresses the multisignature use-case. > The BIP 45 spec does a lot of extra work to make multisignature work > smoothly. > > I'm not trying to criticize your proposal. I'm just trying to > understand what it's trying to accomplish. > > -William Swanson > > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 12:05 AM, Kefkius wrote: > > I have a potential BIP, "Multi-Currency Hierarchy For Use In > > Multisignature Deterministic Wallets." I'm requesting discussion on it, > > and possibly assignment of a BIP number. > > > > It's located in this github gist: > > https://gist.github.com/Kefkius/1aa02945e532f8739023 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > BPM Camp - Free Virtual Workshop May 6th at 10am PDT/1PM EDT > > Develop your own process in accordance with the BPMN 2 standard > > Learn Process modeling best practices with Bonita BPM through live exercises > > http://www.bonitasoft.com/be-part-of-it/events/bpm-camp-virtual- event?utm_ > > source=Sourceforge_BPM_Camp_5_6_15&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=VA_SF > > _______________________________________________ > > Bitcoin-development mailing list > > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > BPM Camp - Free Virtual Workshop May 6th at 10am PDT/1PM EDT > Develop your own process in accordance with the BPMN 2 standard > Learn Process modeling best practices with Bonita BPM through live exercises > http://www.bonitasoft.com/be-part-of-it/events/bpm-camp-virtual- event?utm_ > source=Sourceforge_BPM_Camp_5_6_15&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=VA_SF > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Comment: http://openpgpjs.org xsBNBFTmJ8oBB/9rd+7XLxZG/x/KnhkVK2WBG8ySx91fs+qQfHIK1JrakSV3 x6x0cK3XLClASLLDomm7Od3Q/fMFzdwCEqj6z60T8wgKxsjWYSGL3mq8ucdv iBjC3wGauk5dQKtT7tkCFyQQbX/uMsBM4ccGBICoDmIJlwJIj7fAZVqGxGOM bO1RhYb4dbQA2qxYP7wSsHJ6/ZNAXyEphOj6blUzdqO0exAbCOZWWF+E/1SC EuKO4RmL7Imdep7uc2Qze1UpJCZx7ASHl2IZ4UD0G3Qr3pI6/jvNlaqCTa3U 3/YeJwEubFsd0AVy0zs809RcKKgX3W1q+hVDTeWinem9RiOG/vT+Eec/ABEB AAHNI2tpbm9zaGl0YSA8a2lub3NoaXRham9uYUBnbWFpbC5jb20+wsByBBAB CAAmBQJU5ifRBgsJCAcDAgkQRB9iZ30dlisEFQgCCgMWAgECGwMCHgEAAC6Z B/9otobf0ASHYdlUBeIPXdDopyjQhR2RiZGYaS0VZ5zzHYLDDMW6ZIYm5CjO Fc09ETLGKFxH2RcCOK2dzwz+KRU4xqOrt/l5gyd50cFE1nOhUN9+/XaPgrou WhyT9xLeGit7Xqhht93z2+VanTtJAG6lWbAZLIZAMGMuLX6sJDCO0GiO5zxa 02Q2D3kh5GL57A5+oVOna12JBRaIA5eBGKVCp3KToT/z48pxBe3WAmLo0zXr hEgTSzssfb2zTwtB3Ogoedj+cU2bHJvJ8upS/jMr3TcdguySmxJlGpocVC/e qxq12Njv+LiETOrD8atGmXCnA+nFNljBkz+l6ADl93jHzsBNBFTmJ9EBCACu Qq9ZnP+aLU/Rt6clAfiHfTFBsJvLKsdIKeE6qHzsU1E7A7bGQKTtLEnhCCQE W+OQP+sgbOWowIdH9PpwLJ3Op+NhvLlMxRvbT36LwCmBL0yD7bMqxxmmVj8n vlMMRSe4wDSIG19Oy7701imnHZPm/pnPlneg/Meu/UffpcDWYBbAFX8nrXPY vkVULcI/qTcCxW/+S9fwoXjQhWHaiJJ6y3cYOSitN31W9zgcMvLwLX3JgDxE flkwq/M+ZkfCYnS3GAPEt8GkVKy2eHtCJuNkGFlCAmKMX0yWzHRAkqOMN5KP LFbkKY2GQl13ztWp82QYJZpj5af6dmyUosurn6AZABEBAAHCwF8EGAEIABMF AlTmJ9QJEEQfYmd9HZYrAhsMAABKbgf/Ulu5JAk4fXgH0DtkMmdkFiKEFdkW 0Wkw7Vhd5eZ4NzeP9kOkD01OGweT9hqzwhfT2CNXCGxh4UnvEM1ZMFypIKdq 0XpLLJMrDOQO021UjAa56vHZPAVmAM01z5VzHJ7ekjgwrgMLmVkm0jWKEKaO n/MW7CyphG7QcZ6cJX2f6uJcekBlZRw9TNYRnojMjkutlOVhYJ3J78nc/k0p kcgV63GB6D7wHRF4TVe4xIBqKpbBhhN+ISwFN1z+gx3lfyRMSmiTSrGdKEQe XSIQKG8XZQZUDhLNkqPS+7EMV1g7+lOfT4GhLL68dUXDa1e9YxGH6zkpVECw Spe3vsHZr6CqFg== =/vUJ -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --001a113959bc3d78ee0513390625 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
William,

I believe the reasoning for this is stated= in the Coin Type section.

"Public derivation is used so that c= osigners need only know one of each other's public keys, rather than ne= eding to distribute public keys for each coin."

BIP44 has a coi= n level, but it's a private derived level, so cosigners would not be ab= le to generate multiple crypto currencies of each others' without givin= g each other n xpubs where n is the number of currencies shared. This new p= roposal basically sticks coin type on the public derivation side of things = so that I could generate litecoin or darkcoin multisigs without your permis= sion...

Kefkius,

This BIP seems like a good fit for multi-cur= rency wallets based on multisig. So kudos for putting it in writing.
However, I don't know if this is really a BIP thing. It's not impr= oving Bitcoin (Bitcoin Improvement Proposal... remember?), in fact, by defi= nition it is improving altcoin usability.

For that reason alone I wi= ll say I disagree for a BIP for this.
- Jona


2015-04-08 16:4= 6 GMT+09:00 William Swanson <swa= nsontec@gmail.com>:
>
> It's not really clear why th= is is better than BIP 44 as it already
> stands. You have the same fi= elds, but they are just in a different
> order. Couldn't you just= use the existing BIP 44 hierarchy, but add
> the convention that &qu= ot;wallet/account N" is the same wallet in each
> supported curr= ency?
>
> For example, if I have a wallet called "business= expenses", which
> happens to be wallet m / 44' / 0' / = 5', for Bitcoin, then the same
> wallet would be m / 44' / 3&= #39; / 5' for Dogecoin, and m / 44' / 2' / 5'
> for L= itecoin.
>
> I am trying to think of examples where your propos= al is better than
> BIP 44, but I can't think of any. Even backup= recovery works fine. I
> assume that your idea is to continue iterat= ing over the different
> wallet indices as long as you are finding fu= nds in *any* currency.
> Well, you can still do that with BIP 44. The= fields are in a different
> order, but that doesn't affect the a= lgorithm in any way.
>
> Maybe you have some deeper insight I&#= 39;m not seeing, but if so, you need
> to clearly explain that in you= r motivation section. The current
> explanation, "This limits th= e possible implementations of
> multi-currency, multisignature wallet= s," is pretty vauge. Also, there
> is nothing in this spec that = addresses the multisignature use-case.
> The BIP 45 spec does a lot o= f extra work to make multisignature work
> smoothly.
>
> = I'm not trying to criticize your proposal. I'm just trying to
&g= t; understand what it's trying to accomplish.
>
> -William = Swanson
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 12:05 AM, Kefkius &l= t;kefkius@maza.club> wrote:
> > I have a potential BIP, "M= ulti-Currency Hierarchy For Use In
> > Multisignature Deterministi= c Wallets." I'm requesting discussion on it,
> > and poss= ibly assignment of a BIP number.
> >
> > It's located= in this github gist:
> > https://gist.github.com/Kefkius/1aa02945e532f87390= 23
> >
> > ------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------
> > BPM Camp - Free Virtual W= orkshop May 6th at 10am PDT/1PM EDT
> > Develop your own process i= n accordance with the BPMN 2 standard
> > Learn Process modeling b= est practices with Bonita BPM through live exercises
> > http:= //www.bonitasoft.com/be-part-of-it/events/bpm-camp-virtual- event?utm_<= br>> > source=3DSourceforge_BPM_Camp_5_6_15&utm_medium=3Demail&am= p;utm_campaign=3DVA_SF
> > _______________________________________= ________
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development@l= ists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists= /listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
> -------------------------= -----------------------------------------------------
> BPM Camp - Fr= ee Virtual Workshop May 6th at 10am PDT/1PM EDT
> Develop your own pr= ocess in accordance with the BPMN 2 standard
> Learn Process modeling= best practices with Bonita BPM through live exercises
> http://www= .bonitasoft.com/be-part-of-it/events/bpm-camp-virtual- event?utm_
&g= t; source=3DSourceforge_BPM_Camp_5_6_15&utm_medium=3Demail&utm_camp= aign=3DVA_SF
> _______________________________________________
>= ; Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net<= br>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development<= /a>




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