From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFE8EB4A for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:52:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-vk0-f48.google.com (mail-vk0-f48.google.com [209.85.213.48]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D923D108 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:52:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-vk0-f48.google.com with SMTP id d188so70714669vka.0 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:52:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=WvDkYtV39rxDk/JfVsQ/2JLlnjaa7yVN4xm4ilQeOXM=; b=RUG3xuL3nvi7yP6PIEFetrlpK/DPKR6V7R2S/nnLeQzCMU5VNosjNh7TwrFqrPRmdC HhKLVQtKJb0sA4u/dIAwYMPdH+/mGTgL9ps6rGsN6SrfKnDLGAv1jyvm94/NEgfQDG9a lIqTnhUFplzAA06MxXl+2K0nFwsIG2kT19ZFKm1fYH3GLjtrBLqHDZuQWFjG8oZrcuVM 2qgIKGWYwkozjJKUsxPsWk3wvHVSvzg8IknoRxzjeWo9aeNHB1/Q+xm7Q9rglkZpfFLq M08DJ4UguZtFTEfIcpm0J55MBTq783MWstNTMM2satmmrCgT5gtR/qq/oJwh7lWau2QF 34ww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=WvDkYtV39rxDk/JfVsQ/2JLlnjaa7yVN4xm4ilQeOXM=; b=DAs6vlgurGulnV7tBcbYlGiqMjIoKDepzgF7BG9k+Pr+QiZmSt4a7D0Rl4s4JfW+AX U9ihJVB+ROupf8yWYdzjy2MtBxxyxj21OgD3YQImtFZUuOACDjkPhh5V3s1wo63O+wvK iOTgN2YpMtTOAIIxyysvsCOuKpI7FGbMSM7nxn4AK9UGKHAkcZMNNGsHdd0hqgTU46z7 mOUooM+n85wX5sZN44jP8eOHtY5ndWPwcKIu4kAlPFeZiFImyiGOrwdU9G6ImQxmADhP wEliqlkQEZt9hIiC38WaGPiUIkroT8r2pb3oEknbyCNW9LeMbkSjzRo2ql01JVnkWnJA olbA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2zhTQbJ5B1IOJvmHGeI1aV3hb/1f4baboXTmymsMlKFTpL9LFlQlWtspsIYvEHMyV7ULClW5KHt+q4eQ== X-Received: by 10.31.175.74 with SMTP id y71mr1022081vke.34.1490910721974; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:52:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.157.143 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:52:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Jared Lee Richardson Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:52:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Vorick , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114410fcf9ac20054bf9b3ce X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT,FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 22:03:55 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] High fees / centralization X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:52:04 -0000 --001a114410fcf9ac20054bf9b3ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > Further, we are very far from the point (in my appraisal) where fees are high enough to block home users from using the network. This depends entirely on the usecase entirely. Most likely even without a blocksize increase, home purchases will be large enough to fit on the blocksize in the forseeable future. Microtransactions(<$0.25) on the other hand aren't viable no matter what we try to do - There's just too much data. Most likely, transaction fees above $1 per tx will become unappealing for many consumers, and above $10 is likely to be niche-level. It is hard to say with any certainty, but average credit card fees give us some indications to work with - $1.2 on a $30 transaction, though paid by the business and not the consumer. Without blocksize increases, fees higher than $1/tx are basically inevitable, most likely before 2020. Running a node only costs $10/month if that. If we were going to favor node operational costs that highly in the weighting, we'd better have a pretty solid justification with mathematical models or examples. > We should not throw away the core innovation of monetary sovereignty in pursuit of supporting 0.1% of the world's daily transactions. If we can easily have both, why not have both? An altcoin with both will take Bitcoin's monetary sovereignty crown by default. No crown, no usecases, no Bitcoin. On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 9:14 AM, David Vorick via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > On Mar 30, 2017 12:04 PM, "Tom Harding via bitcoin-dev" < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > Raystonn, > > Your logic is very hard to dispute. An important special case is small > miners. > > Small miners use pools exactly because they want smaller, more frequent > payments. > > Rising fees force them to take payments less frequently, and will only > tend to make more of them give up. > > With fees rising superlinearly, this centralizing effect is much stronger > than the oft-cited worry of small miners joining large pools to decrease > orphan rates. > > > Miners get paid on average once every ten minutes. The size of fees and > the number of fee transactions does not change the payout rate. > > Further, we are very far from the point (in my appraisal) where fees are > high enough to block home users from using the network. > > Bitcoin has many high-value use cases such as savings. We should not throw > away the core innovation of monetary sovereignty in pursuit of supporting > 0.1% of the world's daily transactions. > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > --001a114410fcf9ac20054bf9b3ce Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>=C2=A0Further, we are= very far from the point (in my appraisal) where fees are high enough to bl= ock home users from using the network.

This depends entirely= on the usecase entirely.=C2=A0 Most likely even without a blocksize increa= se, home purchases will be large enough to fit on the blocksize in the fors= eeable future.=C2=A0 Microtransactions(<$0.25) on the other hand aren= 9;t viable no matter what we try to do - There's just too much data.

Most lik= ely, transaction fees above $1 per tx will become unappealing for many cons= umers, and above $10 is likely to be niche-level.=C2=A0 It is hard to say w= ith any certainty, but average credit card fees give us some indications to= work with - $1.2 on a $30 transaction, though paid by the business and not= the consumer.

Without blocksize increases, fees higher than $1/tx a= re basically inevitable, most likely before 2020.=C2=A0 Running a node only= costs $10/month if that.=C2=A0 If we were going to favor node operational = costs that highly in the weighting, we'd better have a pretty solid jus= tification with mathematical models or examples.

>=C2=A0We should not throw aw= ay the core innovation of monetary sovereignty in pursuit of supporting 0.1= % of the world's daily transactions.

If we can easily hav= e both, why not have both?

An altcoin with both will take Bitcoin= 9;s monetary sovereignty crown by default.=C2=A0 No crown, no usecases, no = Bitcoin.



On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Davi= d Vorick via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfound= ation.org> wrote:
On Mar 30, 2017 12= :04 PM, "Tom Harding via bitcoin-dev" <bitcoin-dev@lists.= linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
Raystonn,=C2=A0

Your logic i= s very hard to dispute. An important special case is small miners.

Small miners use pools exactly because th= ey want smaller, more frequent payments.

Rising fees force them to take payments less frequently, and will o= nly tend to make more of them give up.

With fees rising superlinearly, this centralizing effect is much stro= nger than the oft-cited worry of small miners joining large pools to decrea= se orphan rates.

Miners get paid on average once every = ten minutes. The size of fees and the number of fee transactions does not c= hange the payout rate.

F= urther, we are very far from the point (in my appraisal) where fees are hig= h enough to block home users from using the network.

Bitcoin has many high-value use cases such as = savings. We should not throw away the core innovation of monetary sovereign= ty in pursuit of supporting 0.1% of the world's daily transactions.


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