From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from fraxinus.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [140.211.166.137]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE1BDC0001 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 02:10:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fraxinus.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9F408574B for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 02:10:50 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org Received: from fraxinus.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kENuyTCM6ET5 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 02:10:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) by fraxinus.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA04185485 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 02:10:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-il1-f181.google.com (mail-il1-f181.google.com [209.85.166.181]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as jlrubin@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 11N2AkaM014024 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 21:10:47 -0500 Received: by mail-il1-f181.google.com with SMTP id w1so12708639ilm.12 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 18:10:47 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532l1iOn0RTUk4uKP2P+OVXgEsj2R2vH/pd9/DjuEKrg4R3JLw+8 vk7HbAJLZyJqvOIlR9YhPi9W7vsRiZTOxo3Mgos= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxC7bd0yrMzY9oJMzr/9CplgguAyG4vWpUhw3VFlE2VdtklD4d7pxx6EImNJRPiJfp1fzSmQGqZXM6aBTKLL7A= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:164c:: with SMTP id v12mr17551324ilu.49.1614046246592; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 18:10:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210222101632.j5udrgtj2aj5bw6q@erisian.com.au> <7B0D8EE4-19D9-4686-906C-F762F29E74D4@mattcorallo.com> In-Reply-To: From: Jeremy Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 18:10:34 -0800 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002dea2305bbf76d66" Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Yesterday's Taproot activation meeting on lockinontimeout (LOT) X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 02:10:50 -0000 --0000000000002dea2305bbf76d66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Not responding to anyone in particular, but it strikes me that one can think about the case where a small minority (let's say H = 20%?) of nodes select the opposite of what Core releases (LOT=false, LOT=true). I'm ignoring the case where a critical bug is discovered in Taproot for reasons I could expand on if anyone is interested (I don't think LOT=true/false has much of a diff in that regard). You'll note an asymmetry with LOT=true / false analysis. LOT=true nodes are clearly updated (or lying), LOT=false nodes may be un-upgraded (or however you want to interpret it). *# 80% on LOT=false, 20% LOT=True* - Case 1: Activates ahead of time anyways No issues. - Case 2: Fails to Activate before timeout... 20% *may* fork off with LOT=true. Bitcoin hashrate reduced, chance of multi block reorgs at time of fork relatively high, especially if network does not partition. Implication is that activation % being 90%, then X% fewer than 70% of miners are signaling for Taproot at this time. If X% is small the increased orphan rate caused by the LOT=true miners will cause it to activate anyways. If X% is larger, then there will be a consensus split. *# 80% on LOT=true, 20% LOT=False* - Case 1: Activates ahead of time Anyways No issues. - Case 2: Fails to Activate before timeout... A% + B% + C% = 20% A% (upgraded, signal activate) remain on majority chain with LOT=false, blocks mined universally valid. B% (upgraded, not signaling) succeeds in activating and maintaining consensus, blocks are temporarily lost during the final period, but consensus re-emerges. C% (not upgraded/not signalling) both fail to activate (not upgraded) and blocks are rejected (not signaling) during mandatory signalling. Essentially becomes an SPV miner, should still not select transactions improperly given mempool policy, but may mine a bad tip. (I argue that group B is irrational entirely, as in this case the majority has upgraded, inevitably winning, and is orphaning their blocks so B should effectively be 0% or can be combined with group C as being somehow not upgraded if they are unable to switch once it becomes clear after say the first 100 blocks in the period that LOT > 50%. The only difference in lumping B with C is that group C SPV mines after the fork and B should, in theory, have full validation.). Apologies if my base analysis is off -- happy to take corrections. My overall summary is thus: 1) People care what Core releases because we assume the majority will likely run it. If core were a minority project, we wouldn't really care what core released. 2) People are upset with LOT=true being suggested as release parameters because of the *narrative* that it puts devs in control. 3) LOT=true having a sizeable minority running it presents major issues to majority LOT=false in terms of lost blocks during the final period and in terms of a longer term fork. 4) Majority LOT=true has no long term instability on consensus (majority LOT=true means the final period always activates, any instability is short lived + irrational). 5) On the balance, the safer parameter to release *seems* to be LOT=true. But because devs are sensitive to control narrative, LOT=false is preferred by devs. 6) Almost paradoxically, choosing a *less safe* option for a narrative reason is more of a show of dev control than choosing a more safe option despite appearances. 7) This all comes down to if we think that a reasonable number of important nodes will run LOT=true. 8) This all doesn't matter *that much* because taproot will have many opportunities to activate before the brinksmanship period. As a plan of action, I think that means that either: A) Core should release LOT=true, as a less disruptive option given stated community intentions to do LOT=true B) Core community should vehemently anti-advocate running LOT=true to ensure the % is as small as possible C) Do nothing D) Core community should release LOT=false and vehemently advocate manually changing to LOT=true to ensure the % is supermajority, but leaving it as a user choice. Overall, I worry that plan B has a mild Streissand effect and would result in boosting LOT=true (which could be OK, so long as LOT=true + LOT=false+signal yes becomes the large majority, but would be not fun for anyone if LOT=true + LOT=false+signal yes are a small majority). Plan C most likely ends up with some % doing LOT=true anyways. D feels a little silly, but maybe a good tradeoff. If I had to summarize the emotional dynamic among developers around LOT=true, I think devs wish it didn't exist because it is clear LOT=true *creates* the issues here. LOT=false would be fine if the LOT=true strategy didn't exist at all. But unfortunately the cat is out of the bag and cannot be put back in. To validate the emotions, I think it is fine to be angry about LOT=true and not like it, but we should either accept that it is most likely to create consensus OR we should find a new game theoretic activation strategy with better pro-social equilibriums. Personally, I think with either plan the ultimate risk of forking is low given probability to activate before timeout, so we should just pick something and move on, accepting that we aren't setting a precedent by which all future forks should abide. Given my understanding of the tradeoffs, I believe that the safest choice is LOT=true, but I wouldn't move to hold back a plan of LOT=false (but would probably take mitigative steps on community advocacy if it looks like there is non majority but non negligible LOT=true uptake). Cheers, Jeremy --0000000000002dea2305bbf76d66 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not responding to anyo= ne in particular, but it strikes me that one can think about the case where= a small minority (let's say H =3D 20%?) of nodes select the opposite o= f what Core releases (LOT=3Dfalse, LOT=3Dtrue). I'm ignoring the case w= here a critical bug is discovered in Taproot for reasons I could expand on = if anyone is interested (I don't think LOT=3Dtrue/false has much of a d= iff in that regard).

You'll note an asymmetry with LOT=3Dtr= ue / false analysis. LOT=3Dtrue nodes are clearly updated (or lying), LOT= =3Dfalse nodes may be un-upgraded (or however you want to interpret it).

# 80% on LOT=3Dfalse, 20% LOT=3DTrue

-= Case 1: Activates ahead of time anyways

No issues.

- Case 2: Fails to Activate before timeout...

20% *may= * fork off with LOT=3Dtrue. Bitcoin hashrate reduced, chance of multi block= reorgs at time of fork relatively high, especially if network does not par= tition.

Implication is that activation % being 90%, then = X% fewer than 70% of miners are signaling for Taproot at this time.=C2=A0 I= f X% is small the increased orphan rate caused by the LOT=3Dtrue miners wil= l cause it to activate anyways. If X% is larger, then there will be a conse= nsus split.


<= b># 80% on LOT=3Dtrue, 20% LOT=3DFalse
- Case 1: Activates ahead of time Anyways

=
No issues.

- Case 2: Fails to Activate before timeout...

A% + B% + = C% =3D 20%

A% (upgraded, signal activate) remain on majorit= y chain with LOT=3Dfalse, blocks mined universally valid.

B% = (upgraded, not signaling) succeeds in activating and maintaining consensus,= blocks are temporarily lost during the final period, but consensus re-emer= ges.

C% (not upgraded/not signalling) both fail to activate= (not upgraded) and blocks are rejected (not signaling) during mandatory si= gnalling. Essentially becomes an SPV miner, should still not select transac= tions improperly given mempool policy, but may mine a bad tip.

(I argue that group B is irrational entirely, as in this case the major= ity has upgraded, inevitably winning, and is orphaning their blocks so B sh= ould effectively be 0% or can be combined with group C as being somehow not= upgraded if they are unable to switch once it becomes clear after say the = first 100 blocks in the period that LOT > 50%. The only difference in lu= mping B with C is that group C SPV mines after the fork and B should, in th= eory, have full validation.).
=


Apologies = if my base analysis is off -- happy to take corrections.


My overall summary is thus:

1) People care what Core releases because we assume the majority will = likely run it. If core were a minority project, we wouldn't really care= what core released.
2) People= are upset with LOT=3Dtrue being suggested as release parameters because of= the narrative that it puts devs in control.
3) LOT=3Dtrue having a sizeable minority running it pres= ents major issues to majority LOT=3Dfalse in terms of lost blocks during th= e final period and in terms of a longer term fork.
4) Majority LOT=3Dtrue has no long term instability on c= onsensus (majority LOT=3Dtrue means the final period always activates, any = instability is short lived + irrational).
5) On the balance, the safer parameter to release *seems* to be= LOT=3Dtrue. But because devs are sensitive to control narrative, LOT=3Dfal= se is preferred by devs.
6) Almost= paradoxically, choosing a less safe option for a narrative reason i= s more of a show of dev control than choosing a more safe option despite ap= pearances.
7) This all comes down = to if we think that a reasonable number of important nodes will run LOT=3Dt= rue.
8) This all doesn't = matter *that much* because taproot will have many opportunities to activate= before the brinksmanship period.

As a plan of action, I th= ink that means that either:

A) Core should release LOT=3Dtrue, = as a less disruptive option given stated community intentions to do LOT=3Dt= rue
B) Core=C2=A0 community sh= ould vehemently anti-advocate running LOT=3Dtrue to ensure the % is as smal= l as possible
C) Do nothing
<= div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:r= gb(0,0,0)" class=3D"gmail_default">D) Core community should release LOT=3Df= alse and vehemently advocate manually changing to LOT=3Dtrue to ensure the = % is supermajority, but leaving it as a user choice.


Overall, I worry that plan B has a = mild Streissand effect and would result in boosting LOT=3Dtrue (which could= be OK, so long as LOT=3Dtrue=C2=A0+ LOT=3Dfalse+signal yes becomes the lar= ge majority, but would be not fun for anyone if LOT=3Dtrue + LOT=3Dfalse+si= gnal yes are a small majority). Plan C most likely ends up with some % doin= g LOT=3Dtrue anyways. D feels a little silly, but maybe a good tradeoff.

If I had to summarize the emotional dynamic among developers = around LOT=3Dtrue, I think devs wish it didn't exist because it is clea= r LOT=3Dtrue *creates* the issues here. LOT=3Dfalse would be fine if the LO= T=3Dtrue strategy didn't exist at all. But unfortunately the cat is out= of the bag and cannot be put back in. To validate the emotions, I think it= is fine to be angry about LOT=3Dtrue and not like it, but we should either= accept that it is most likely to create consensus OR we should find a new = game theoretic activation strategy with better pro-social equilibriums.

Personally, I think with either plan the ultimate risk of forking = is low given probability to activate before timeout, so we should just pick= something and move on, accepting that we aren't setting a precedent by= which all future forks should abide. Given my understanding of the tradeof= fs, I believe that the safest choice is LOT=3Dtrue, but I wouldn't move= to hold back a plan of LOT=3Dfalse (but would probably take mitigative ste= ps on community advocacy if it looks like there is non majority but non neg= ligible LOT=3Dtrue uptake).
Cheers,

Jeremy
=


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