From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50FE610AF for ; Tue, 1 Sep 2015 22:47:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-wi0-f180.google.com (mail-wi0-f180.google.com [209.85.212.180]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8880CE0 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 2015 22:47:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wibz8 with SMTP id z8so47135705wib.1 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 15:47:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=Vpf1V+cCFlTgIS/fAE7ligR0KYO5ScL9dCja7ZVCASc=; b=RY53f8q8RFKpLeznm5T1fufNoaqveECKJG5NHaOY4jA8b/P047JZJXCUpG5FRr5Rmh Wm9zKerrT7ZCCY95WnCpUaIcMlG/SXGi9QVCM5z7OZ70uiHuD7hobnGCouu0uBST/qx+ uUgjT74310nEugzzb/h35ZzKQQLoxEKwCOOTJDj8Gxe+Awek9rmdyHkwBnblTOm7XLMI MnIT/tm8lG1ACtgBVwqA56ed8oAsRNXerodEQ/NdLmGVRXlAC7Y8fC+halBjwi8wgPgL vMPPeLzJDwqfqG/w/vuwtVeFjreCbtgpk8Q+LeG9yp/uaCkVIQ69RutqE0VpZhUwSjlG 8VIA== X-Received: by 10.194.191.164 with SMTP id gz4mr36074825wjc.21.1441147650250; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 15:47:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.211.16 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Sep 2015 15:47:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Btc Drak Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 23:47:10 +0100 Message-ID: To: Ahmed Zsales Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM, HK_RANDOM_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Open Block Chain Licence, BIP[xxxx] Draft X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2015 22:47:32 -0000 I have read the proposal. I think you missed my point: every existing transaction author would be required to agree to your proposals for them to be legal, and that's clearly impossible. You'd also need every single miner who published a block. You're much better taking the line that actually, the data is public domain and unrestricted based on various assumptions. You make some assumptions that transaction authors use Bitcoin Core to "contract with the network", but in fact transactions are written and broadcast by a number of means, arguably very few are created by Bitcoin Core these days. How exactly do you expect to get a legally binding agreement from all future transaction authors agreeing to your terms? How would you prove Alice agreed 10 years later? If it was a proprietary system like Paypal who can force you to agree or close your account, the Bitcoin protocol is permissionless and anyone can author a transaction using any means they like, not just Bitcoin Core. So again I come back to the point your proposal would have to get permission from all existing authors, and all future authors to work. Overall I think the proposal is trying to fix something that doesn't need fixing and get into a quagmire in the process. In fact, I see it as an impossible task. On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Ahmed Zsales wrote: > To avoid repetition, we have actually covered the general points and > questions you have raised in the draft BIP, which includes a draft licence > to assist discussions: > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwEbhrQ4ELzBMVFxajNZa2hzMTg/view?usp=sharing > > Regards, > > Ahmed > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 11:02 PM, Btc Drak wrote: >> >> I think it gets worse. Who are the copyright owners (if this actually >> applies). You've got people publishing transaction messages, you've >> got miners reproducing them and publishing blocks. Who are all the >> parties involved? Then to take pedantry to the next level, does a >> miner have permission to republish messages? How do you know? What if >> the messages are reproducing others copyright/licensed material? It's >> not possible to license someone else's work. There are plenty rabbit >> holes to go down with this train of thought. >> >> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Ahmed Zsales via bitcoin-dev >> wrote: >> > That is a very good point. >> > >> > We considered whether data existing before a licence change would be >> > covered, but we hadn't factored the potential need for gaining >> > permissions >> > for a change to be considered effective. >> > >> > We have proposed that miners be the main beneficiaries of licensing and >> > there is a consideration on whether they should vote to adopt the new >> > terms. >> > While not the preferred route, that would overcome any issues to what is >> > an >> > otherwise honest 'error and omission.' There doesn't seem to be anyone >> > who >> > could claim to have suffered any economic losses so this may not be an >> > issue. It merits further investigation. >> > >> > The block chain is in perpetual change, so the sooner a change is agreed >> > upon, if at all, the more data it will cover without any reservations. >> > At >> > any rate, we believe the changes would be considered effective on a >> > retrospective basis. >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 7:12 PM, Btc Drak wrote: >> >> >> >> Without commenting on your proposal at all, the general problem with >> >> licensing after the fact is you require the permission of every >> >> copyright holder in order to make the change. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Ahmed Zsales via bitcoin-dev >> >> wrote: >> >> > Hello, >> >> > >> >> > We believe the network requires a block chain licence to supplement >> >> > the >> >> > existing MIT Licence which we believe only covers the core reference >> >> > client >> >> > software. >> >> > >> >> > Replacing or amending the existing MIT Licence is beyond the scope of >> >> > this >> >> > draft BIP. >> >> > >> >> > Rationale and details of our draft BIP for discussion and evaluation >> >> > are >> >> > here: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwEbhrQ4ELzBMVFxajNZa2hzMTg/view?usp=sharing >> >> > >> >> > Regards, >> >> > >> >> > Ahmed >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > bitcoin-dev mailing list >> >> > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >> >> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > bitcoin-dev mailing list >> > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> > > >