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[2a00:1450:4864:20::136]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5b1f17b1804b1-4408d03fd7csi5620195e9.1.2025.04.27.15.50.03 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 27 Apr 2025 15:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jameson.lopp@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::136 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::136; Received: by mail-lf1-x136.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-54e98f73850so267995e87.1 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2025 15:50:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctApH4H2FT03DUnPrt/B0BIl3ihnmuAaYpLjYBoqPTnTzosTFBxVn3TZ34I7re mqeMjoXo3Ln2Su/3i5ascup9+v1PH9QveIGpIEenmcQkat49HKbDfjm58RdGjhsov9dvQxFcYeA BzG+4cpggfAZOOuK0dH5aGq7UIA5V7StDh0w== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:1045:b0:54e:81c9:6110 with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-54e8cc0cae1mr3390829e87.50.1745794201791; Sun, 27 Apr 2025 15:50:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5c13e130-aaa2-4866-be26-7498100e868b@murch.one> <7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-2506a2410b29@murch.one> <672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-4508d39cfd7dn@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-4508d39cfd7dn@googlegroups.com> From: Jameson Lopp Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2025 18:49:49 -0400 X-Gm-Features: ATxdqUEZsSb9u-AFBuoWXhiWuDjTgB1uyo97fTdYOjDk019X0Lyly0yTvhGp9E0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Unbreaking testnet4 To: Saint Wenhao Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003fb81f0633ca63b4" X-Original-Sender: jameson.lopp@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=AF+0BniV; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jameson.lopp@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::136 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jameson.lopp@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --0000000000003fb81f0633ca63b4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 12:47=E2=80=AFPM Saint Wenhao wrote: > What about introducing demurrage in testnet5 consensus rules? > In general it seems desirable for a testnet to be as close as possible to mainnet's rules. Demurrage might be asking a bit much in terms of deviation= . I'd suggest simply disabling the halving logic and making it a perpetual 50 TBTC issuance. At that rate, it would still take ~8 years or so to surpass the 21M limit and I'd think that testnets should be reset more frequently than that. > > Testnet coins were supposed to be worthless. But it failed in both > testnet3 and testnet4. In the meanwhile, signet was introduced, to make a > more stable test network. However, signing blocks was listed on wiki page > https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes as something, that "Require > unanimous consent". And, as the history can tell us, people still wanted = to > test mining anyway, which is why testnet3 and testnet4 have much more > chainwork than signet (and when it comes to signet, sending > signed-but-unmined blocks to the miners was never implemented, so they ha= d > no chance to provide more hashing power). > > Another kind of change on the list, that would require consent, was > increasing the total number of coins beyond 21 million. But then, testing > supply limits would be harder, and it could cause integer overflows in so= me > cases. But: in all test networks, including testnet3, testnet4, and signe= t, > there was never a problem of "not enough coins for miners", so that chang= e > probably wouldn't solve any problems (and seeing it in action would take > years anyway; testnet4 is still far from the first halving, and it is > traded anyway, so that change won't fix it). > > Then, we have the third option, which was not yet tried in test networks: > demurrage. There are two main options: burning coins, or re-assigning the= m > to someone else. To make a soft-fork out of it, re-assigning would be > backward-incompatible, so it is probably easier to just implement burning= , > and just treat all coins older than N blocks in the same way, as OP_RETUR= N, > by simply invalidating transactions spending them on consensus level. > > Also, when it comes to maintaining testnet nodes, if it would be possible > to automatically remove things from the UTXO set, then it would make > Initial Blockchain Download easier, just because new nodes wouldn't need = to > synchronize everything, if old coins would be automatically invalidated. = In > practice, all nodes could be just running in pruned mode all the time, an= d > everything beyond the pruning point, could be simply ignored on consensus > level (which would also prevent the UTXO set from exploding). And then, i= f > we would keep for example the last 2,016 blocks, then the whole chain wou= ld > never take more than 2016 * 4 MB =3D 8.064 GB of storage, and that's all = we > would need to send during Initial Blockchain Download to other nodes. > > poniedzia=C5=82ek, 31 marca 2025 o 22:50:27 UTC+2 Antoine Poinsot napisa= =C5=82(a): > >> Good point on not having the flag day on a holiday. One or two weeks >> sounds good to me. >> >> >> >> >> On Monday, March 24th, 2025 at 8:25 AM, Murch wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > Errr, I wrote the same date as you, but I meant a week later, >> 2026-01-08 >> > instead. >> > >> > -Murch >> > >> > On 2025-03-21 14:20, Murch wrote: >> > >> > > Hey Antoine and everyone, >> > > >> > > What you suggest makes sense to me. Since the 20-minute difficulty >> > > exception is now exploited perpetually, it doesn=E2=80=99t serve its= intended >> > > purpose of allowing developers to mine themselves a few coins easily >> or >> > > confirm their own non-standard transactions. In that case, it would >> be >> > > better to not have it at all. >> > > >> > > On 2025-03-18 07:29, 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development >> Mailing >> > > List wrote: >> > > >> > > > I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset rule from >> > > > testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01. >> > > >> > > I would suggest to pick a date that=E2=80=99s not a holiday in many = places to >> > > avoid disrupting people=E2=80=99s holiday, how about 2026-01-01 inst= ead? >> > > >> > > Cheers, >> > > Murch >> > >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-250= 6a2410b29%40murch.one. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-4508= d39cfd7dn%40googlegroups.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CADL_X_eXcmD8fEpL9Sqqwt6EfwtdjG%2BAaqk%2BpgSBhPmaVT3gEw%40mail.gmail.com. --0000000000003fb81f0633ca63b4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Apr 27,= 2025 at 12:47=E2=80=AFPM Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.com> wrote:
What about introducing demurrage in testnet5 = consensus rules?
In general it seems desirable for a t= estnet to be as close as possible to mainnet's rules. Demurrage might b= e asking a bit much in terms of deviation.

I'd= suggest simply disabling the halving logic and making it a perpetual 50 TB= TC issuance. At that rate, it would still take ~8 years or so to surpass th= e 21M limit and I'd think that testnets should be reset more frequently= than that.

Test= net coins were supposed to be worthless. But it failed in both testnet3 and= testnet4. In the meanwhile, signet was introduced, to make a more stable t= est network. However, signing blocks was listed on wiki page https://en.bi= tcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes as something, that "Require unani= mous consent". And, as the history can tell us, people still wanted to= test mining anyway, which is why testnet3 and testnet4 have much more chai= nwork than signet (and when it comes to signet, sending signed-but-unmined = blocks to the miners was never implemented, so they had no chance to provid= e more hashing power).

Another kind of change on the list, that woul= d require consent, was increasing the total number of coins beyond 21 milli= on. But then, testing supply limits would be harder, and it could cause int= eger overflows in some cases. But: in all test networks, including testnet3= , testnet4, and signet, there was never a problem of "not enough coins= for miners", so that change probably wouldn't solve any problems = (and seeing it in action would take years anyway; testnet4 is still far fro= m the first halving, and it is traded anyway, so that change won't fix = it).

Then, we have the third option, which was not yet tried in test= networks: demurrage. There are two main options: burning coins, or re-assi= gning them to someone else. To make a soft-fork out of it, re-assigning wou= ld be backward-incompatible, so it is probably easier to just implement bur= ning, and just treat all coins older than N blocks in the same way, as OP_R= ETURN, by simply invalidating transactions spending them on consensus level= .

Also, when it comes to maintaining testnet nodes, if it would be p= ossible to automatically remove things from the UTXO set, then it would mak= e Initial Blockchain Download easier, just because new nodes wouldn't n= eed to synchronize everything, if old coins would be automatically invalida= ted. In practice, all nodes could be just running in pruned mode all the ti= me, and everything beyond the pruning point, could be simply ignored on con= sensus level (which would also prevent the UTXO set from exploding). And th= en, if we would keep for example the last 2,016 blocks, then the whole chai= n would never take more than 2016 * 4 MB =3D 8.064 GB of storage, and that&= #39;s all we would need to send during Initial Blockchain Download to other= nodes.

poniedzia=C5=82ek, 31 marca 2025 o=C2=A022:50:27 UTC+2 Antoine Poinso= t napisa=C5=82(a):
Good point on not having the flag day on a holiday. One or two weeks sou= nds good to me.




On Monday, March 24th, 2025 at 8:25 AM, Murch <mu...@murch.one> w= rote:

>=20
>=20
> Errr, I wrote the same date as you, but I meant a week later, 2026= -01-08
> instead.
>=20
> -Murch
>=20
> On 2025-03-21 14:20, Murch wrote:
>=20
> > Hey Antoine and everyone,
> >=20
> > What you suggest makes sense to me. Since the 20-minute diffi= culty
> > exception is now exploited perpetually, it doesn=E2=80=99t se= rve its intended
> > purpose of allowing developers to mine themselves a few coins= easily or
> > confirm their own non-standard transactions. In that case, it= would be
> > better to not have it at all.
> >=20
> > On 2025-03-18 07:29, 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin De= velopment Mailing
> > List wrote:
> >=20
> > > I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset r= ule from
> > > testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01.
> >=20
> > I would suggest to pick a date that=E2=80=99s not a holiday i= n many places to
> > avoid disrupting people=E2=80=99s holiday, how about 2026-01-= 01 instead?
> >=20
> > Cheers,
> > Murch
>=20
>=20
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, = send an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoinde= v/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-2506a2410b29%40murch.one.

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