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[2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ht16-20020a170907609000b00a4e22cdcbc8si227056ejc.1.2024.03.31.07.57.52 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 31 Mar 2024 07:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jameson.lopp@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::12a as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12a; Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-515d55aaf5aso944078e87.3 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2024 07:57:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:ac2:488b:0:b0:513:cfd6:d151 with SMTP id x11-20020ac2488b000000b00513cfd6d151mr3120625lfc.18.1711897071493; Sun, 31 Mar 2024 07:57:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8c6e98ff-bdec-4955-8132-bd93af2d40dd@dashjr.org> In-Reply-To: <8c6e98ff-bdec-4955-8132-bd93af2d40dd@dashjr.org> From: Jameson Lopp Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2024 10:57:39 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] The Future of Bitcoin Testnet To: Luke Dashjr Cc: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d6ae480614f618b6" X-Original-Sender: jameson.lopp@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=bbgPWT70; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jameson.lopp@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::12a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jameson.lopp@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --000000000000d6ae480614f618b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 10:33=E2=80=AFAM Luke Dashjr wrot= e: > Is the difficulty reset bug actually a bug, or a feature? > > I haven't thought of or heard of any good reason why it's helpful to have a dozen blocks per second flood the network for several days every time the edge case gets hit. > If it's a bug, couldn't we just fix it and let the blockchain reorg on it= s > own? > I believe so. Upon closer inspection I think it's actually a soft forkable fix if all we do is restrict the special testnet minimum difficulty rule so that it can't be triggered on the block right before a difficulty retarget. > Signet is definitely not a replacement for testnet. > > Luke > > > On 3/31/24 09:19, Jameson Lopp wrote: > > Hi all, > > I'd like to open a discussion about testnet3 to put out some feelers on > potential changes to it. First, a few facts: > > 1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 million > something and the block reward is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not > doing a great job at distributing testnet coins any more. > > 2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rather amusin= g > edge case bug that causes the difficulty to regularly get reset to 1, whi= ch > causes a bit of havoc. If you want a deep dive into the quirk: > https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/ > > 3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of us who > tend to be generous with our testnet coins are getting hounded by > non-developers chasing cheap gains. > > 4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one could argue > that the fundamental principle of testnet coins having no value has been > broken. > > This leads me to ponder the following questions, for which I'm soliciting > feedback. > > 1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has > been since the last reset and how many production systems will need to be > updated, would a reset need to be done with a great deal of notice? > > 2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It should be a > one liner fix, and I'd argue it could be done sooner rather than later, a= nd > orthogonal to the network reset question. Would such a change, which woul= d > technically be a hard fork (but also arguably a self resolving fork due t= o > the difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it? > > 3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead deprecate > testnet in favor of signet? > > - Jameson > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_eXjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5= Q2RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mail.gmail.com > > . > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= bitcoindev/CADL_X_eZ3uDU7PPh11rn2NSGwvRMjjZ3Auu6eVVQoJU78%2BaRxQ%40mail.gma= il.com. --000000000000d6ae480614f618b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 10:33=E2=80= =AFAM Luke Dashjr <luke@dashjr.org> wrote:
= =20 =20 =20

Is the difficulty reset bug actually a bug, or a feature?

<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

If it's a bug,= couldn't we just fix it and let the blockchain reorg on its own?

I believe so. Upon close= r inspection I think it's actually a soft forkable fix if all we do is = restrict the special testnet minimum difficulty rule so that it can't b= e triggered on the block right before a difficulty retarget.=C2=A0

Signet is definitely not a replacement for testnet.

Luke


On 3/31/24 09:19, Jameson Lopp wrote:
Hi all,

I'd like to open a discussion about testnet3 to put out some feelers on potential changes to it. First, a few facts:

1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 million something and the block reward is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not doing a great job at distributing testnet coins any more.

3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of us who tend to be generous with our testnet coins are getting hounded by non-developers chasing cheap gains.

4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one could argue that the fundamental principle of testnet=C2=A0coins having no value has been broken.

This leads me to ponder the following questions, for which I'm soliciting feedback.

1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has been since the last reset and how many production systems will need to be updated, would a reset need to be done with a great deal of notice?

2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It should be a one liner fix, and I'd argue it could be done sooner rather than later, and orthogonal to the network reset question. Would such a change, which would technically be a hard fork (but also arguably a self resolving fork due to the difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it?

3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead deprecate testnet in favor of signet?

- Jameson
--
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