From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AC0ED23 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:22:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-la0-f48.google.com (mail-la0-f48.google.com [209.85.215.48]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FE6414D for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:22:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by labnh1 with SMTP id nh1so22842857lab.3 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2015 07:22:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=VBqTUbDu3JVOPUbF5aaN/Nn9mkAw1VwMNdOUvtwiDg0=; b=O+dEMOJyqnBGGXREytkUosSgwiGV+iE0WT4/DDjVbrlnLqWG1Q8t1Y4Hify8FLNp7b Sdxuvx+boSpRrDMgSS8sRCTfT3A5RgG+EMXgBCAX9UajAP9zMo6VPnf6Kmd+oMbmf/Ig lN5XIPrRu/B8dacJ/cBKwocHuh4Wp3vvhD6Z5XgYQH8ziRsX6oWkLnZvu7ABKt2vZ9R2 JurbWaDnR8q44Zy78qUXBuH49AzD2GOZwpsdDFprW4MeHkwCnNR2WLK8lkIvQhpGqUP4 JxR8qOspnJUSiZZULmbA3gC8gtE84epoqh7NOzwcCf9UEfuC5cAQq1cmAvZznnTkcGvl cstA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.6.194 with SMTP id d2mr6923532laa.93.1440858121610; Sat, 29 Aug 2015 07:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.150.84 with HTTP; Sat, 29 Aug 2015 07:22:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55E145EF.3060801@gmail.com> References: <55E145EF.3060801@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 10:22:01 -0400 Message-ID: From: Jameson Lopp To: "Justin M. Wray" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013d186a82b3ac051e73ecfa X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Variable Block Size Proposal X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:22:05 -0000 --089e013d186a82b3ac051e73ecfa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I don't think you'll find much support for introducing a mandatory minimum block size. It's quite wasteful to "pad" blocks with transactions that the miner is just sending back to themself. If you want to solve the block propagation issue, I'd recommend instead working on O(1) block propagation. The Bitcoin Relay Network already allows miners to relay blocks much faster: http://bitcoinrelaynetwork.org/ The next step would be getting O(1) block propagation into the Bitcoin protocol. Check out Gavin's proposal: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/e20c3b5a1d4b97f79ac2 - Jameson On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 1:41 AM, Justin M. Wray via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA512 > > Hey Bitcoiners! > > While I am an avid Bitcoin supporter, long-term user, and have done > development work on tools and platforms surrounding Bitcoin, I have > been very busy these past few weeks and haven't had a chance to fully > (or closely) monitor the Block Size debate. > > I'm familiar with the basics, and have read abstracts about the > front-running proposals (BIP 100, 101, and 102). Though I've honestly > not read those in depth either. With that said, I was driving > the other day and thought of a potential idea. I'll be clear, this is > just an idea, and I haven't fully fleshed it out. But I thought I'd > throw it out there and see what people thought. > > My Goal: > > Provide a variable block size that provides for sustainable, long-term > growth, and balances the block propagation, while also being mindful > of potential spam attacks. > > The Proposal: > > Every 2016 blocks (approximately every two weeks, at the same time the > difficulty is adjusted), the new block size parameters are calculated. > > The calculation determines the average (mean) size of the past 2016 > blocks. This "average" size is then doubled (200%) and used as the > maximum block size for the subsequent 2016 blocks. At any point, if > the new maximum size is calculated to be below 1MB, 1MB is used > instead (which prevents regression from our current state). > > Introduce a block minimum, the minimum will be 25% of the current > maximum, calculated at the same time (that is, every 2016 blocks, at > the same time the maximum is calculated). All blocks must be at least > this size in order to be valid, for blocks that do not have enough > transactions to meet the 25%, padding will be used. This devalues the > incentive to mine empty blocks in either an attempt to deflate the > block size, or to obtain a propagation advantage. Miners will be > incentivized to include transactions, as the block must meet the > minimum. This should ensure that even miners wishing to always mine > the minimum are still confirming Bitcoin transactions. > > At the block in which this is introduced the maximum would stay at 1MB > for the subsequent 2016 blocks. With the minimum being enforced of 256KB > . > > Example: > > * Average Block Size for the last 2016 blocks: 724KB > * New Maximum: 1448KB > * New Minimum: 362KB > > Example: (Regression Prevention) > > * Average Block Size for the last 2016 blocks: 250KB > * New Maximum: 1MB > * New Minimum: 256KB > > The Future: > > I believe that the 1MB regression prevention might need to be changed > in the future, to prevent a large mining population from continually > deflating the block size (and keeping us at the 1MB limit). > > For this, the hard limit could be changed in the future manually, > through a process similar to the current one, though hopefully with > far less urgency and hysteria. > > Another option is to add an additional calculation, preventing the new > maximum from being lower than 75% of the current maximum. This would > substantially slow down a block-size deflation attack. > > Example of Block-Size Deflation Attack Prevention: > > * Average Block Size for the last 2016 blocks: 4MB > * New Maximum: 8MB > * New Minimum: 2MB > > * Average Block Size for the last 2016 blocks: 2MB > * New Maximum: 6MB (2 * 200% = 4, 4< 75% of 8, So use 8 * .75 = 6) > * New Minimum: 1.5MB > > This would provide a maximum growth of 200% per recalculation, but a > maximum shrinkage of 75%. > > Request For Comments: > > I'd love to hear your thoughts. Why wouldn't this work? What portion > is flawed? Will the miners support such a proposal? Would this even > solve the block size issue? > > I will note that I don't find the 100% and 25% to be hard and fast in > my idea. Those we're just the values that initially jumped out at me. > I could easily see the minimum being anything below 50% (above 50% and > the network can never adjust to smaller block sizes). I could also see > the maximum being anything over 100%. Lastly, if a inflation attack > is a valid concern, a hard upper limit could be set (or the historical > 32MB limit could remain). > > I think the great part about this variable approach is that the > network can adjust to address spikes in volume and readjust once those > spikes dissipate. > > - -- > Thanks! > > - ----- > Justin M. Wray > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org > > iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJV4UXvAAoJENo/Q5Xwcn83ZWEP/iXAlNk5p9OlOPNSoHkECcxe > AcartxMLrmOvAZVudU4+239TEvwPydmYX/ptmBYgrvRJfm/TWmi0ZbTioxbxTIWM > IlNta1Y8IOHOEgBCtSW01j1PFHIzkBHQGIuqrKHhjcNVGbegXlPm3Da0gjNuTBIe > IV58gf1OfYK2XjuCMQMvo3VyXUKhqbOvBNnZXr+Qo2sAtanmxHQ+TU/gjA02L9LO > bb8WqQDj/veGnMexGh/X58tfQ5KCfLO401F7KnConDaFdKVDikp32zaSXZ7JWf/K > OeseHW1OHHVdYpHvh5VG5GLtYYB5rnq8g7B0/kyx5n4ldB6GkLxzH9CPB0vxpMnZ > dVCS/+EUe/wkHrpRVNhMwP8XfG+8gv9upKg6H/u39XmpL2H2G4cKeot5xRiWRNqY > oJclAeIhDTL1bx/9e/VqvM91ESWpBLs+O8Mh9OzgfbN3gKR6BuoWHNwM9jSMDAT1 > YzwdneSvAEFzgELMlae2QIzAUHno9qkHMkDVbdY3bBtSM9Xz4ditGgnq1D40ZZ+J > zx5WVY7HCebgbk7T35xgKzSKQSEG9zFNW5Dvq66Se3Zpc5vCPw7Q2xwjjPz3zdXQ > Lub0ohVWTzKr05tN1e/nu6keiY5cXRZ0w2MtHb19jtdWyoHEWWHanfOZjgbVSsuA > saFCydA7O4E4BFxgtNze > =JthX > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --089e013d186a82b3ac051e73ecfa Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't think you'll find much support for in= troducing a mandatory minimum block size. It's quite wasteful to "= pad" blocks with transactions that the miner is just sending back to t= hemself. If you want to solve the block propagation issue, I'd recommen= d instead working on O(1) block propagation.

The Bitcoin Rela= y Network already allows miners to relay blocks much faster: http://bitcoinrelaynetwork.org/
<= br>The next step would be getting O(1) block propagation into the Bitcoin p= rotocol. Check out Gavin's proposal: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/= e20c3b5a1d4b97f79ac2

- Jameson

On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at = 1:41 AM, Justin M. Wray via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@l= ists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hey Bitcoiners!

While I am an avid Bitcoin supporter, long-term user, and have done
development work on tools and platforms surrounding Bitcoin, I have
been very busy these past few weeks and haven't had a chance to fully (or closely) monitor the Block Size debate.

I'm familiar with the basics, and have read abstracts about the
front-running proposals (BIP 100, 101, and 102). Though I've honestly not read those in depth either. With that said, I was driving
the other day and thought of a potential idea. I'll be clear, this is just an idea, and I haven't fully fleshed it out. But I thought I'd=
throw it out there and see what people thought.

My Goal:

Provide a variable block size that provides for sustainable, long-term
growth, and balances the block propagation, while also being mindful
of potential spam attacks.

The Proposal:

Every 2016 blocks (approximately every two weeks, at the same time the
difficulty is adjusted), the new block size parameters are calculated.

The calculation determines the average (mean) size of the past 2016
blocks. This "average" size is then doubled (200%) and used as th= e
maximum block size for the subsequent 2016 blocks. At any point, if
the new maximum size is calculated to be below 1MB, 1MB is used
instead (which prevents regression from our current state).

Introduce a block minimum, the minimum will be 25% of the current
maximum, calculated at the same time (that is, every 2016 blocks, at
the same time the maximum is calculated). All blocks must be at least
this size in order to be valid, for blocks that do not have enough
transactions to meet the 25%, padding will be used. This devalues the
incentive to mine empty blocks in either an attempt to deflate the
block size, or to obtain a propagation advantage. Miners will be
incentivized to include transactions, as the block must meet the
minimum. This should ensure that even miners wishing to always mine
the minimum are still confirming Bitcoin transactions.

At the block in which this is introduced the maximum would stay at 1MB
for the subsequent 2016 blocks. With the minimum being enforced of 256KB .

Example:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Average Block Size for the last 2016 blocks: 724KB
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * New Maximum: 1448KB
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * New Minimum: 362KB

Example: (Regression Prevention)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Average Block Size for the last 2016 blocks: 250KB
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * New Maximum: 1MB
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * New Minimum: 256KB

The Future:

I believe that the 1MB regression prevention might need to be changed
in the future, to prevent a large mining population from continually
deflating the block size (and keeping us at the 1MB limit).

For this, the hard limit could be changed in the future manually,
through a process similar to the current one, though hopefully with
far less urgency and hysteria.

Another option is to add an additional calculation, preventing the new
maximum from being lower than 75% of the current maximum. This would
substantially slow down a block-size deflation attack.

=C2=A0Example of Block-Size Deflation Attack Prevention:

=C2=A0* Average Block Size for the last 2016 blocks:=C2=A0 4MB
=C2=A0* New Maximum:=C2=A0 8MB
=C2=A0* New Minimum:=C2=A0 2MB

=C2=A0* Average Block Size for the last 2016 blocks:=C2=A0 2MB
=C2=A0* New Maximum:=C2=A0 6MB=C2=A0 (2 * 200% =3D 4, 4< 75% of 8, So us= e 8 * .75 =3D 6)
=C2=A0* New Minimum:=C2=A0 1.5MB

This would provide a maximum growth of 200% per recalculation, but a
maximum shrinkage of 75%.

Request For Comments:

I'd love to hear your thoughts. Why wouldn't this work? What portio= n
is flawed? Will the miners support such a proposal? Would this even
solve the block size issue?

I will note that I don't find the 100% and 25% to be hard and fast in my idea. Those we're just the values that initially jumped out at me. I could easily see the minimum being anything below 50% (above 50% and
the network can never adjust to smaller block sizes). I could also see
the maximum being anything over 100%.=C2=A0 Lastly, if a inflation attack is a valid concern, a hard upper limit could be set (or the historical
32MB limit could remain).

I think the great part about this variable approach is that the
network can adjust to address spikes in volume and readjust once those
spikes dissipate.

- --
Thanks!

- -----
Justin M. Wray
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org

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bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.= linuxfoundation.org
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--089e013d186a82b3ac051e73ecfa--