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[2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 2adb3069b0e04-553ac1634a2si126118e87.11.2025.06.14.13.06.10 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 14 Jun 2025 13:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jameson.lopp@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::131 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::131; Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-551ed563740so3587941e87.2 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2025 13:06:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCU96LXRf042nvdXLoIM6nwwh2naBSyXv+lul2xDlA9f5bsS7Nywv8qx+zydrWJKHEJFEb+9uFaShdpI@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuApLru/H5w43qt5bub2UIhH4ECKpoVcPPRFcyLOEutje1NR76uak6EqJgc/Ge rltcKlNKNXJKBwVojUMRBw+J1AiQHwWyS00pBzWuRBONbMxSQGI8IuXW3NpmFeWLW3w5reSgu1K 0yy8US9TtAtV2r5JN5WOBTjayALDQJup9zKjzxhuAeJlk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:39c3:b0:553:23f9:bb3b with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-553b6f43089mr771138e87.49.1749931569572; Sat, 14 Jun 2025 13:06:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46349b6c-ccec-4378-8721-aecec22752e7@mattcorallo.com> <8d158e3d-b3cc-44b6-b71b-ab2e733c047c@mattcorallo.com> <3781512A-0912-4493-AED5-9520A0488949@sprovoost.nl> In-Reply-To: <3781512A-0912-4493-AED5-9520A0488949@sprovoost.nl> From: Jameson Lopp Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2025 16:05:57 -0400 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFunAyKIHwZERcpFD5BDoUw6IASbey-I7cb9umL3ivVTBu-sWgATVUDTC7A Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter To: Sjors Provoost Cc: Antoine Poinsot , Matt Corallo , Andrew Poelstra , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000095f1b306378db1ff" X-Original-Sender: jameson.lopp@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=CFEcMoUv; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jameson.lopp@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::131 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jameson.lopp@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --00000000000095f1b306378db1ff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jun 14, 2025 at 11:58=E2=80=AFAM Sjors Provoost wrote: > Hi Jameson, > > CTV does enable vaults, but the user has to (carefully) move coins into > the vault themselves. Because CTV commits to the amount, among other > things, you can't simply publish a vault address and receive arbitrary > amounts there. They'd be stuck, committing to an impossible to satisfy CT= V > hash. > Understood. OP_CCV enables more flexible / user friendly vaults. Sounds good to me! I'll just reiterate my previous point that custody software services would rather have a "good" tool in the hand than a better solution waiting on the distant horizon. > There's also the question of what, if anything, the user needs to backup > after each deposit [0]. It's probably just the deposit transaction id, > which is arguably something that can be recovered with some (?) work. > > OP_CCV enables a more flexible design where the user can receive arbitrar= y > amounts directly into their vault address, and with nothing to backup aft= er > initial setup (seeds + descriptor-like-thing). > > Here's a demo functional test for an OP_CCV vault (without CTV): > https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32080 > > The problem with both demos is that they use boutique software. There's > not yet a potentially interoperable standard to describe these things. > > Hopefully some simple vault schemes can be shoehorned into the existing > output descriptor paradigm [1], because inventing a whole new way of maki= ng > vault-aware wallets interoperable would take many years. > > To illustrate such schemes, I'd love to see a working demo using just a > (patched) Bitcoin Core wallet. Though perhaps a library like BDK[2] is an > easier platform for such ideation. > > - Sjors > > [0] https://github.com/jamesob/simple-ctv-vault/issues/9 > [1] https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/ctv-vault-output-descriptor/1766/8 > [2] https://github.com/bitcoindevkit > > > Op 13 jun 2025, om 17:41 heeft Jameson Lopp > het volgende geschreven: > > > [...] > > > > I'm not sure how to parse Antoine's claim that CTV+CSFS doesn't enable > vaults given that there has already been a CTV vault client proof of > concept for 3 years: https://github.com/jamesob/simple-ctv-vault > > > > On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 9:07=E2=80=AFAM Antoine Poinsot > wrote: > > > [...] > > > That said, consensus-enforced vaults require a mechanism to forward any > amount received on a script A to a pre-committed script B. CTV+CSFS does > not enable this, and a primitive that actually does (like CCV) is more > controversial because of its potency. > > [...] > > > I also appreciate that CTV is nice to have for CCV vaults, but a > potential future use case that is not enabled by one proposal cannot be > used to motivate said proposal. > > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CADL_X_fUCR%3D2O0MUHXBA98oV4%2BwcJ-qYYrrRjB7h7YER-JKsGA%40mail.gmail.com. --00000000000095f1b306378db1ff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Jun 14,= 2025 at 11:58=E2=80=AFAM Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl> wrote:
Hi Jameson,

CTV does enable vaults, but the user has to (carefully) move coins into the= vault themselves. Because CTV commits to the amount, among other things, y= ou can't simply publish a vault address and receive arbitrary amounts t= here. They'd be stuck, committing to an impossible to satisfy CTV hash.=

Understood. OP_CCV enables more flexib= le / user friendly vaults. Sounds good to me!

I= 9;ll just reiterate my previous point that=C2=A0custody software services w= ould rather have a "good" tool in the hand than a better solution= waiting on the distant horizon.


There's also the question of what, if anything, the user needs to backu= p after each deposit [0]. It's probably just the deposit transaction id= , which is arguably something that can be recovered with some (?) work.

OP_CCV enables a more flexible design where the user can receive arbitrary = amounts directly into their vault address, and with nothing to backup after= initial setup (seeds + descriptor-like-thing).

Here's a demo functional test for an OP_CCV vault (without CTV): https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32080

The problem with both demos is that they use boutique software. There's= not yet a potentially interoperable standard to describe these things.

Hopefully some simple vault schemes can be shoehorned into the existing out= put descriptor paradigm [1], because inventing a whole new way of making va= ult-aware wallets interoperable would take many years.

To illustrate such schemes, I'd love to see a working demo using just a= (patched) Bitcoin Core wallet. Though perhaps a library like BDK[2] is an = easier platform for such ideation.=C2=A0

- Sjors

[0] https://github.com/jamesob/simple-ctv-vault/= issues/9
[1] https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/ctv-= vault-output-descriptor/1766/8
[2] https://github.com/bitcoindevkit

> Op 13 jun 2025, om 17:41 heeft Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com> het vo= lgende geschreven:
>
[...]
>
> I'm not sure how to parse Antoine's claim that CTV+CSFS doesn&= #39;t enable vaults given that there has already been a CTV vault client pr= oof of concept for 3 years: https://github.com/jamesob/si= mple-ctv-vault
>
> On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 9:07=E2=80=AFAM Antoine Poinsot <darosior@protonmail.com<= /a>> wrote:


[...]

> That said, consensus-enforced vaults require a mechanism to forward an= y amount received on a script A to a pre-committed script B. CTV+CSFS does = not enable this, and a primitive that actually does (like CCV) is more cont= roversial because of its potency.

[...]

> I also appreciate that CTV is nice to have for CCV vaults, but a poten= tial future use case that is not enabled by one proposal cannot be used to = motivate said proposal.
>

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