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[2a00:1450:4864:20::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e5-20020a056000178500b003418013729esi458978wrg.5.2024.04.04.05.47.20 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Apr 2024 05:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jameson.lopp@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::22d; Received: by mail-lj1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2d718efedb2so15355171fa.0 for ; Thu, 04 Apr 2024 05:47:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:49d:b0:2d6:a609:9a33 with SMTP id s29-20020a05651c049d00b002d6a6099a33mr2172157ljc.0.1712234839668; Thu, 04 Apr 2024 05:47:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <950b875a-e430-4bd8-870d-f9a9fab2493an@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <950b875a-e430-4bd8-870d-f9a9fab2493an@googlegroups.com> From: Jameson Lopp Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2024 08:47:06 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: The Future of Bitcoin Testnet To: Calvin Kim Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006401aa061544bd76" X-Original-Sender: jameson.lopp@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b="T/lRIW+o"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jameson.lopp@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jameson.lopp@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --0000000000006401aa061544bd76 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 4:29=E2=80=AFAM Calvin Kim wrote: > Throwing myself into the conversation because I think there's other devs > that use testnet like I do. > I mainly use testnet for checking if the utreexod implementation I'm > building runs into consensus > bugs due to the havoc of how testnet creates bursts of blocks and how it > reorganizes itself. I find > the unpredictability a feature. > > > 1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 million > something and the block reward is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not > doing a great job at distributing testnet coins any more. > > For my usage I never really see this as a problem since signet already > provides that usecase. While > I can empathize with devs struggling to get coins, there's always signet > for the usecase of testing > scripts/wallets. Signet doesn't really provide the same feature for my > usecase. > > > 2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rather > amusing edge case bug that causes the difficulty to regularly get reset t= o > 1, which causes a bit of havoc. If you want a deep dive into the quirk: > https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/ > > I stated this above but I find this as a feature. > > > 3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of us who > tend to be generous with our testnet coins are getting hounded by > non-developers chasing cheap gains. > > Could I get links/sources for this? I'm curious as to how big of a proble= m > this is. > > SatoshiVM airdrop: https://twitter.com/lopp/status/1753522413466464756 Not sure how to prove that I'm inundated with beggars; I've probably gotten 50 messages on a variety of platforms this year from non-developers asking for testnet coins. > 4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one could argue > that the fundamental principle of testnet coins having no value has been > broken. > > Same for this. Would appreciate links/evidence. > > https://buytestnet.com/ https://altquick.com/exchange/market/BitcoinTestnet > > 1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has > been since the last reset and how many production systems will need to be > updated, would a reset need to be done with a great deal of notice? > > I lean towards no unless the problem with testnet coins being valued is > too significant. > > > 2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It should be a > one liner fix, and I'd argue it could be done sooner rather than later, a= nd > orthogonal to the network reset question. Would such a change, which woul= d > technically be a hard fork (but also arguably a self resolving fork due t= o > the difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it? > > Again, I'd lean towards keeping it the same. > > > 3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead deprecate > testnet in favor of signet? > > No as signet doesn't have the features I find valuable in testnet. > > Best, > Calvin > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/950b875a-e430-4bd8-870d-f9a9= fab2493an%40googlegroups.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= bitcoindev/CADL_X_fs0OVAoFiekm3sLUyODXr6j7mh8M6zQV_dEyg05itE6A%40mail.gmail= .com. --0000000000006401aa061544bd76 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 4:29=E2=80=AFA= M Calvin Kim <ccychc@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
Throwi= ng myself into the conversation because I think there's other devs that= use testnet like I do.
I mainly use testnet for checking if the utreex= od implementation I'm building runs into consensus
bugs due t= o the havoc of how testnet creates bursts of blocks and how it reorganizes = itself. I find
the unpredictability a feature.

> 1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on blo= ck 2.5 million something and the block reward is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mi= ning is not doing a great job at distributing testnet coins any more.
=

For my usage I never really see this as a problem since= signet already provides that usecase. While
I can empathize with= devs struggling to get coins, there's always signet for the usecase of= testing
scripts/wallets. Signet doesn't really provide the s= ame feature for my usecase.=C2=A0

>=C2=A0= 2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rather amusing = edge case bug that causes the difficulty to regularly get reset to 1, which= causes a bit of havoc. If you want a deep dive into the quirk:=C2=A0https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-= bitcoins-testnet/

I stated this a= bove but I find this as a feature.

> 3. Testnet= 3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of us who tend to be ge= nerous with our testnet coins are getting hounded by non-developers chasing= cheap gains.

Could I get links/sources for th= is? I'm curious as to how big of a problem this is.


Not sure how to prove that I'm i= nundated with beggars; I've probably gotten 50 messages on a variety of= platforms this year from non-developers asking for testnet coins.

> 4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one co= uld argue that the fundamental principle of testnet=C2=A0coins having no va= lue has been broken.

Same for this. Would appr= eciate links/evidence.


https://buytestnet.com/
=C2=A0
&= gt; 1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has = been since the last reset and how many production systems will need to be u= pdated, would a reset need to be done with a great deal of notice?

I lean towards no unless the problem with testnet coins be= ing valued is too significant.

> 2. Is there in= terest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It should be a one liner fix, an= d I'd argue it could be done sooner rather than later, and orthogonal t= o the network reset question. Would such a change, which would technically = be a hard fork (but also arguably a self resolving fork due to the difficul= ty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it?

Again, I'd lean towards keeping it the same.

> 3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead dep= recate testnet in favor of signet?

No as sig= net doesn't have the features I find valuable in testnet.

Best,
Calvin

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