public inbox for bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Angel Leon <gubatron@gmail.com>
To: Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin XT 0.11A
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 18:27:01 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CADZB0_Zn6N4vMctHyqgsNL68Z9p7s46hzRZ2wV-k7PG7-+Ww=Q@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CC1B6D0E-F9D5-422B-980D-C589CDC00612@gmail.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 8947 bytes --]

"I don’t think the concern here is so much that some people want to
increase block size. It’s the *way* in which this change is being pushed
that is deeply problematic."

As a developer on the side lines, bitcoin holder, bitcoin entrepreneur, and
someone who thinks block size limits should be dynamic, I applaud Mike and
Co. for this initiative, some of us that have different ideas on how to
deal with the blocksize issue will certainly not be afraid of wasting time
sending patches to the Bitcoin XT project where it seems they're a bit more
open minded about this issue. I bet sending the same patch to Bitcoin-Core
would be rejected on the spot. Bitcoin XT, I hope, will give room to allow
for scalability, it seems the other camp is bent on using Bitcoin their own
way and their own way only and that's far more problematic because that
will allienate the entire user base eventually.

http://twitter.com/gubatron

On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

>
> On Aug 15, 2015, at 3:01 PM, Ken Friece via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> What are you so afraid of, Eric? If Mike's fork is successful, consensus
> is reached around larger blocks. If it is rejected, the status quo will
> remain for now. Network consensus, NOT CORE DEVELOPER CONSENSUS, is the
> only thing that matters, and those that go against network consensus will
> be severely punished with complete loss of income.
>
>
> I fully agree that core developers are not the only people who should have
> a say in this. But again, we’re not talking about merely forking some open
> source project - we’re talking about forking a ledger representing real
> assets that real people are holding…and I think it’s fair to say that the
> risk of permanent ledger forks far outweighs whatever benefits any change
> in the protocol might bring. And this would be true even if there were
> unanimous agreement that the change is good (which there clearly IS NOT in
> this case) but the deployment mechanism could still break things.
>
> If anything we should attempt a hard fork with a less contentious change
> first, just to test deployability.
>
> I'm not sure who appointed the core devs some sort of Bitcoin Gods that
> can hold up any change that they happen to disagree with. It seems like the
> core devs are scared to death that the bitcoin network may change without
> their blessing, so they go on and on about how terrible hard forks are.
> Hard forks are the only way to keep core devs in check.
>
>
> Again, let’s figure out a hard fork mechanism and test it with a far less
> contentious change first
>
> Despite significant past technical bitcoin achievements, two of the most
> vocal opponents to a reasonable blocksize increase work for a company
> (Blockstream) that stands to profit directly from artificially limiting the
> blocksize. The whole situation reeks. Because of such a blatant conflict of
> interest, the ethical thing to do would be for them to either resign from
> Blockstream or immediately withdraw themselves from the blocksize debate.
> This is the type of stuff that I hoped would end with Bitcoin, but alas, I
> guess human nature never changes.
>
>
> For the record, I do not work for Blockstream. Neither do a bunch of other
> people who have published a number of concerns. Very few of the concerns
> I’ve seen from the technical community seem to be motivated primarily by
> profit motives.
>
> It should also be pointed out that *not* making drastic changes is the
> default consensus policy…and the burden of justifying a change falls on
> those who want to make the change. Again, the risk of permanent ledger
> forks far outweighs whatever benefits protocol changes might bring.
>
> Personally, I think miners should give Bitcoin XT a serious look. Miners
> need to realize that they are in direct competition with the lightning
> network and sidechains for fees. Miners, ask yourselves if you think you'll
> earn more fees with 1 MB blocks and more off-chain transactions or with 8
> MB blocks and more on-chain transactions…
>
>
> Miners are NOT in direct competition with the lightning network and
> sidechains - these claims are patently false. I recommend you take a look
> at these ideas and understand them a little better before trying to make
> any such claims. Again, I do not work for Blockstream…and my agenda in this
> post is not to promote either of these ideas…but with all due respect, I do
> not think you properly understand them at all.
>
> The longer this debate drags on, the more I agree with BIP 100 and Jeff
> Garzik because the core devs are already being influenced by outside forces
> and should not have complete control of the blocksize. It's also
> interesting to note that most of the mining hashpower is already voting for
> 8MB blocks BIP100 style.
>
>
> I don’t think the concern here is so much that some people want to
> increase block size. It’s the *way* in which this change is being pushed
> that is deeply problematic.
>
> On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> You deeply disappoint me, Mike.
>>
>> Not only do you misrepresent many cogent, well thought out positions from
>> a great number of people who have published and posted a number of articles
>> detailing an explaining in-depth technical concerns…you also seem to fancy
>> yourself more capable of reading into the intentions of someone who
>> disappeared from the scene years ago, before we even were fully aware of
>> many things we now know that bring the original “plan” into question.
>>
>> I ask of you, as a civilized human being, to stop doing this divisive
>> crap. Despite your protestations to the contrary, YOU are the one who is
>> proposing a radical departure from the direction of the project. Also, as
>> several of us have clearly stated before, equating the fork of an open
>> source project with a fork of a cryptoledger is completely bogus - there’s
>> a lot of other people’s money at stake. This isn’t a democracy - consensus
>> is all or nothing. The fact that a good number of the people most
>> intimately familiar with the inner workings of Satoshi’s invention do not
>> believe doing this is a good idea should give you pause.
>>
>> Please stop using Bitcoin as your own political football…for the sake of
>> Bitcoin…and for your own sake. Despite your obvious technical abilities
>> (and I sincerely do believe you have them) you are discrediting yourself
>> and hurting your own reputation.
>>
>>
>> - Eric
>>
>> On Aug 15, 2015, at 10:02 AM, Mike Hearn via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> As promised, we have released Bitcoin XT 0.11A which includes the bigger
>> blocks patch set. You can get it from
>>
>>      https://bitcoinxt.software/
>>
>> I feel sad that it's come to this, but there is no other way. The Bitcoin
>> Core project has drifted so far from the principles myself and many others
>> feel are important, that a fork is the only way to fix things.
>>
>> Forking is a natural thing in the open source community, Bitcoin is not
>> the first and won't be the last project to go through this. Often in forks,
>> people say there was insufficient communication. So to ensure everything is
>> crystal clear I've written a blog post and a kind of "manifesto" to
>> describe why this is happening and how XT plans to be different from Core
>> (assuming adoption, of course).
>>
>> The article is here:
>>
>>     https://medium.com/@octskyward/why-is-bitcoin-forking-d647312d22c1
>>
>> It makes no attempt to be neutral: this explains things from our point of
>> view.
>>
>> The manifesto is on the website.
>>
>> I say to all developers on this list: if you also feel that Core is no
>> longer serving the interests of Bitcoin users, come join us. We don't bite.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 11734 bytes --]

  reply	other threads:[~2015-08-15 22:27 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 47+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2015-08-15 17:02 [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin XT 0.11A Mike Hearn
2015-08-15 17:57 ` s7r
2015-08-15 18:38 ` s7r
2015-08-15 19:21   ` Mike Hearn
2015-08-15 20:36     ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-08-15 20:47       ` Bryan Bishop
2015-08-15 21:10         ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-08-15 20:55       ` Micha Bailey
2015-08-15 21:32 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-08-15 22:01   ` Ken Friece
2015-08-15 22:16     ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-08-15 22:27       ` Angel Leon [this message]
2015-08-15 22:28       ` Ken Friece
2015-08-15 22:55         ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-08-15 23:04           ` Ken Friece
2015-08-15 23:07             ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-08-15 23:30               ` Michael Naber
2015-08-15 23:40               ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-08-15 23:57                 ` Ken Friece
2015-08-16  0:06                 ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-08-16 13:49   ` Mike Hearn
2015-08-16 15:44     ` Anthony Towns
2015-08-16 16:07     ` Tamas Blummer
2015-08-16 16:12       ` Levin Keller
2015-08-16 17:01       ` Adam Back
2015-08-16 18:15         ` Tamas Blummer
2015-08-16 20:27 ` Eric Voskuil
2015-08-15 22:39 muyuubyou
2015-08-16 18:37 ` Andrew LeCody
2015-08-16 23:02 ` Cameron Garnham
2015-08-16 23:22   ` Andrew LeCody
2015-08-17  0:03     ` Cameron Garnham
2015-08-17  6:42       ` Peter Todd
2015-08-17 12:29         ` Andrew LeCody
2015-08-17 12:33           ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-08-19 10:09             ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-19 15:41               ` s7r
2015-08-19 22:28                 ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-19 22:45                   ` Adam Back
2015-08-19 23:23                     ` Peter Todd
2015-08-20 10:25                   ` s7r
2015-08-20 11:32                     ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-08-20 11:46                       ` Hector Chu
2015-08-20 12:29                         ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-08-20 14:25                           ` Tamas Blummer
2015-08-17 21:42     ` Matt Corallo
2015-08-16  2:08 muyuubyou

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to='CADZB0_Zn6N4vMctHyqgsNL68Z9p7s46hzRZ2wV-k7PG7-+Ww=Q@mail.gmail.com' \
    --to=gubatron@gmail.com \
    --cc=bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org \
    --cc=elombrozo@gmail.com \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox