public inbox for bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@gmail.com>
To: Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com>
Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 10:33:18 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CADm_WcbnQQGZoQ92twfUvbzqGwu__xLn+BYOkHPZY_YT1pFrbA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAPg+sBgugLSVEwDLXhgey86_rM2fTjGWXFuXsiZioJKCZiHiNg@mail.gmail.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4300 bytes --]

On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 9:52 AM, Pieter Wuille via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Some people have called the prospect of limited block space and the
> development of a fee market a change in policy compared to the past. I
> respectfully disagree with that. Bitcoin Core is not running the Bitcoin
> economy, and its developers have no authority to set its rules. Change in
> economics is always happening, and should be expected. Worse, intervening
> in consensus changes would make the ecosystem more dependent on the group
> taking that decision, not less.
>
>
This completely ignores *reality*, what users have experienced for the past
~6 years.

"Change in economics is always happening" does not begin to approach the
scale of the change.

For the entirety of bitcoin's history, absent long blocks and traffic
bursts, fee pressure has been largely absent.

Moving to a new economic policy where fee pressure is consistently present
is radically different from what users, markets, and software have
experienced and *lived.*

Analysis such as [1][2] and more shows that users will hit a "painful"
"wall" and market disruption will occur - eventually settling to a new
equilibrium after a period of chaos - when blocks are consistently full.

[1] http://hashingit.com/analysis/34-bitcoin-traffic-bulletin
[2] http://gavinandresen.ninja/why-increasing-the-max-block-size-is-urgent

First, users & market are forced through this period of chaos by "let a fee
market develop" as the whole market changes to a radically different
economic policy, once the network has never seen before.

Next, when blocks are consistently full, the past consensus was that block
size limit will be increased eventually.  What happens at that point?

Answer - Users & market are forced through a second period of chaos and
disruption as the fee market is rebooted *again* by changing the block size
limit.

The average user hears a lot of noise on both sides of the block size
debate, and really has no idea that the new "let a fee market develop"
Bitcoin Core policy is going to *raise fees* on them.

It is clear that
- "let the fee market develop, Right Now" has not been thought through
- Users are not prepared for a brand new economic policy
- Users are unaware that a brand new economic policy will be foisted upon
them



> So to point out what I consider obvious: if Bitcoin requires central
> control over its rules by a group of developers, it is completely
> uninteresting to me. Consensus changes should be done using consensus, and
> the default in case of controversy is no change.
>

False.

All that has to do be done to change bitcoin to a new economic policy - not
seen in the entire 6 year history of bitcoin - is to stonewall work on
block size.

Closing size increase PRs and failing to participate in planning for a
block size increase accomplishes your stated goal of changing bitcoin to a
new economic policy.

"no [code] change"... changes bitcoin to a brand new economic policy,
picking economic winners & losers.  Some businesses will be priced out of
bitcoin, etc.

Stonewalling size increase changes is just as much as a Ben Bernanke/FOMC
move as increasing the hard limit by hard fork.



> My personal opinion is that we - as a community - should indeed let a fee
> market develop, and rather sooner than later, and that "kicking the can
> down the road" is an incredibly dangerous precedent: if we are willing to
> go through the risk of a hard fork because of a fear of change of
> economics, then I believe that community is not ready to deal with change
> at all. And some change is inevitable, at any block size. Again, this does
> not mean the block size needs to be fixed forever, but its intent should be
> growing with the evolution of technology, not a panic reaction because a
> fear of change.
>
> But I am not in any position to force this view. I only hope that people
> don't think a fear of economic change is reason to give up consensus.
>

Actually you are.

When size increase progress gets frozen out of Bitcoin Core, that just
*increases* the chances that progress must be made through a contentious
hard fork.

Further, it increases the market disruption users will experience, as
described above.

Think about the users.  Please.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5938 bytes --]

  parent reply	other threads:[~2015-07-22 17:33 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 86+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <CAPg+sBgs-ouEMu=LOVCmOyCGwfM1Ygxooz0shyvAuHDGGZYfJw@mail.gmail.com>
2015-07-22 16:52 ` [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks Pieter Wuille
2015-07-22 17:18   ` Ross Nicoll
2015-07-22 17:32   ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-07-22 18:45     ` Bryan Cheng
2015-07-22 17:33   ` Jeff Garzik [this message]
2015-07-22 18:01     ` Jeff Garzik
2015-07-22 18:03     ` Alex Morcos
2015-07-22 18:24       ` Jeff Garzik
2015-07-23 12:17         ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-23 16:17           ` Tom Harding
2015-07-23 16:28             ` Gavin Andresen
2015-07-23 16:50               ` cipher anthem
2015-07-23 17:14                 ` Robert Learney
2015-07-23 18:21                   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 18:47                   ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-23 17:43               ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 18:10                 ` Jameson Lopp
2015-07-23 19:14                   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 19:35                     ` Gavin Andresen
2015-07-23 19:39                       ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 19:51                       ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 19:52                     ` Jameson Lopp
2015-07-23 20:26                       ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-23 20:52                         ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 23:42                           ` Benedict Chan
     [not found]                             ` <42BF7FEB-320F-43BE-B3D9-1D76CB8B9975@gmai>
2015-07-23 23:57                             ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  0:04                               ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  0:20                                 ` Simon Liu
2015-07-24  0:22                                 ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  0:32                                   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  0:38                                     ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  0:45                                     ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  0:49                                       ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  0:53                                         ` Peter Todd
2015-07-24  1:03                                           ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  1:08                                             ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  1:25                                               ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  1:28                                                 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  1:37                                                   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  1:42                                                   ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  1:55                                                     ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  2:12                                                       ` [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin, Perceptions, and Expectations Raystonn .
2015-07-24  8:48                                                         ` Jonas Schnelli
2015-07-24  9:42                                                           ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-24 14:37                                                             ` Vincent Truong
2015-07-25  2:18                                                               ` gb
2015-07-25 11:22                                                                 ` Slurms MacKenzie
2015-07-25 15:04                                                                 ` Thomas Kerin
2015-07-24  0:56                                       ` [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  1:05                                         ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-23 18:12               ` Slurms MacKenzie
2015-07-23 18:57                 ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-23 17:51             ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-24  6:30               ` Tom Harding
2015-07-24  9:24                 ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-24 22:50                   ` Tom Harding
2015-07-28 11:29                     ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-28 11:32                       ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-28 16:44                       ` Tom Harding
2015-07-28 17:33                         ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-22 19:17     ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-22 21:43   ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-22 21:56     ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-22 22:01       ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-22 22:09         ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23  1:53         ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-22 22:30     ` Jeff Garzik
2015-07-23  0:27   ` Tom Harding
2015-07-23  0:37     ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23  4:40   ` Edmund Edgar
2015-07-27 12:08   ` Peter Todd
2015-07-27 12:44     ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-07-22 22:40 Raystonn
2015-07-22 23:42 ` Cory Fields
2015-07-22 23:53   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23  0:05     ` Cory Fields
2015-07-23  0:13       ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23  0:34         ` Cory Fields
2015-07-23  0:43           ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23  7:24             ` Ross Nicoll
2015-07-23  0:49         ` Eric Voskuil
2015-07-23 18:12   ` Jorge Timón
     [not found] <BA7ACCE1-81B2-4AC1-B6DD-7A856FD27D52@gmail.com>
2015-07-23  8:24 ` Gareth Williams
2015-07-27 17:05 Alice Larson
2015-07-27 17:22 ` Eric Voskuil
2015-07-28  4:55   ` Wladimir J. van der Laan

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=CADm_WcbnQQGZoQ92twfUvbzqGwu__xLn+BYOkHPZY_YT1pFrbA@mail.gmail.com \
    --to=jgarzik@gmail.com \
    --cc=bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org \
    --cc=pieter.wuille@gmail.com \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox