From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WXHOl-0002iA-B5 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 07 Apr 2014 21:48:11 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.216.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.177; envelope-from=tier.nolan@gmail.com; helo=mail-qc0-f177.google.com; Received: from mail-qc0-f177.google.com ([209.85.216.177]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WXHOi-0003xm-Vk for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 07 Apr 2014 21:48:11 +0000 Received: by mail-qc0-f177.google.com with SMTP id w7so62541qcr.8 for ; Mon, 07 Apr 2014 14:48:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.125.194 with SMTP id z2mr6174949qar.99.1396907283444; Mon, 07 Apr 2014 14:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.25.86 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Apr 2014 14:48:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5342C833.5030906@gmail.com> <6D430188-CE00-44B1-BD8C-B623CF04D466@icloudtools.net> <6D6E55CE-2F04-4C34-BEE6-98AEF1478346@bitsofproof.com> <8A6DEBA4-EA59-4BAE-95CF-C964C2DBB84B@bitsofproof.com> <8222EAFD-813E-4046-A751-FD3D04FF6764@bitsofproof.com> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 22:48:03 +0100 Message-ID: From: Tier Nolan To: Bitcoin Development Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2068869fa7204f67ad239 X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (tier.nolan[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1WXHOi-0003xm-Vk Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Why are we bleeding nodes? X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2014 21:48:11 -0000 --001a11c2068869fa7204f67ad239 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 8:50 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: > You have to load headers sequantially to be able to connect them and > determine the longest chain. > The isn't strictly true. If you are connected to a some honest nodes, then you could download portions of the chain and then connect the various sub-chains together. The protocol doesn't support it though. There is no system to ask for block headers for the main chain block with a given height, Finding one high bandwidth peer to download the entire header chain sequentially is pretty much forced. The client can switch if there is a timeout. Other peers could be used to parallel download the block chain while the main chain is downloading. Even if the header download stalled, it wouldn't be that big a deal. > Blocks can be loaded in random order once you have their order given by the headers. > Computing the UTXO however will force you to at least temporarily store the blocks unless you have plenty of RAM. You only need to store the UTXO set, rather than the entire block chain. It is possible to generate the UTXO set without doing any signature verification. A lightweight node could just verify the UTXO set and then do random signature verifications. The keeps disk space and CPU reasonably low. If an illegal transaction is added to be a block, then proof could be provided for the bad transaction. The only slightly difficult thing is confirming inflation. That can be checked on a block by block basis when downloading the entire block chain. > Regards, > Tamas Blummer > http://bitsofproof.com On 07.04.2014, at 21:30, Paul Lyon wrote: I hope I'm not thread-jacking here, apologies if so, but that's the approach I've taken with the node I'm working on. Headers can be downloaded and stored in any order, it'll make sense of what the winning chain is. Blocks don't need to be downloaded in any particular order and they don't need to be saved to disk, the UTXO is fully self-contained. That way the concern of storing blocks for seeding (or not) is wholly separated from syncing the UTXO. This allows me to do the initial blockchain sync in ~6 hours when I use my SSD. I only need enough disk space to store the UTXO, and then whatever amount of block data the user would want to store for the health of the network. This project is a bitcoin learning exercise for me, so I can only hope I don't have any critical design flaws in there. :) ------------------------------ From: tamas@bitsofproof.com Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 21:20:31 +0200 To: gmaxwell@gmail.com CC: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Why are we bleeding nodes? Once headers are loaded first there is no reason for sequential loading. Validation has to be sequantial, but that step can be deferred until the blocks before a point are loaded and continous. Tamas Blummer http://bitsofproof.com On 07.04.2014, at 21:03, Gregory Maxwell wrote: On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: therefore I guess it is more handy to return some bitmap of pruned/full blocks than ranges. A bitmap also means high overhead and-- if it's used to advertise non-contiguous blocks-- poor locality, since blocks are fetched sequentially. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Put Bad Developers to Shame Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Put Bad Developers to Shame > Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration > Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment > Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > --001a11c2068869fa7204f67ad239 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 8:50 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com> wrote:
You have to load headers sequantially to be able to connect them= and determine the longest chain.

The isn'= ;t strictly true.  If you are connected to a some honest nodes, then y= ou could download portions of the chain and then connect the various sub-ch= ains together.

The protocol doesn't support it though.  There is no system to= ask for block headers for the main chain block with a given height,
Finding one high bandwidth peer to download the entire header chain = sequentially is pretty much forced.  The client can switch if there is= a timeout.

Other peers could be used to parallel = download the block chain while the main chain is downloading.  Even if= the header download stalled, it wouldn't be that big a deal.
=

> Blocks can be loaded= in random order once you have their order given by the headers.
> = Computing the UTXO however will force you to at least temporarily store the= blocks unless you have plenty of RAM.

You only need to store the UTXO set, rather than the entire = block chain.

It is possible to generate the UTXO set with= out doing any signature verification.

A lightweight node = could just verify the UTXO set and then do random signature verifications.<= br>
The keeps disk space and CPU reasonably low.  If an ill= egal transaction is added to be a block, then proof could be provided for t= he bad transaction.

The only slightly difficult thing is = confirming inflation.  That can be checked on a block by block basis w= hen downloading the entire block chain.
On 07.04.2014, at 21:30, Paul Lyon <pmlyon@hotmail.ca> = wrote:

I hope I'm not thread-jacking here, ap= ologies if so, but that's the approach I've taken with the node I&#= 39;m working on.

Headers can be downloaded and stored in= any order, it'll make sense of what the winning chain is. Blocks don&#= 39;t need to be downloaded in any particular order and they don't need = to be saved to disk, the UTXO is fully self-contained. That way the concern= of storing blocks for seeding (or not) is wholly separated from syncing th= e UTXO. This allows me to do the initial blockchain sync in ~6 hours when I= use my SSD. I only need enough disk space to store the UTXO, and then what= ever amount of block data the user would want to store for the health of th= e network.

This project is a bitcoin learnin= g exercise for me, so I can only hope I don't have any critical design = flaws in there. :)

From: <= /span>tamas@bits= ofproof.com
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 21:20:31 +0200
To: gmaxwell@gmail.com
CC: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Why are we bleeding nodes?

<= br>
Once headers are loaded first there is no reason for sequenti= al loading. 

Validation has to be sequantial,= but that step can be deferred until the blocks before a point are loaded a= nd continous.


On 07.04.2014, at 21:03, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Tamas Bl= ummer <tamas@= bitsofproof.com> wrote:
therefore I guess it is more handy to return some= bitmap of pruned/full
blocks than ranges.

A bitmap = also means high overhead and— if it's used to advertise
non-co= ntiguous blocks— poor locality, since blocks are fetched
sequentially.



---------------------= --------------------------------------------------------- Put Bad Developer= s to Shame Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration Continu= ously Automate Build, Test & Deployment Start a new project now. Try Je= nkins in the cloud.http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees

_______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development mai= ling list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-= development


-------------------------------------= -----------------------------------------
Put Bad Developers to Shame
Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
http://p.= sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees
_________________________________________= ______
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