From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1We09W-0000Dg-BJ for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sat, 26 Apr 2014 10:48:14 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.216.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.174; envelope-from=tier.nolan@gmail.com; helo=mail-qc0-f174.google.com; Received: from mail-qc0-f174.google.com ([209.85.216.174]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1We09V-0005Zb-6W for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sat, 26 Apr 2014 10:48:14 +0000 Received: by mail-qc0-f174.google.com with SMTP id c9so5114146qcz.33 for ; Sat, 26 Apr 2014 03:48:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.20.72 with SMTP id e8mr18389707qab.86.1398509287729; Sat, 26 Apr 2014 03:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.25.86 with HTTP; Sat, 26 Apr 2014 03:48:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <535B8C43.8030502@gmx.de> References: <1398437607.23028.110362141.03111A2A@webmail.messagingengine.com> <535B8C43.8030502@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 11:48:07 +0100 Message-ID: From: Tier Nolan To: Bitcoin Dev Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1bfea4f6dd004f7efd1d5 X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (tier.nolan[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1We09V-0005Zb-6W Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] BIP32 "wallet structure" in use? Remove it? X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 10:48:14 -0000 --001a11c1bfea4f6dd004f7efd1d5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe the solution is to have a defined way to import an unknown wallet? This means that the gap space and a search ordering needs to be defined. Given a blockchain and a root seed, it should be possible to find all the addresses for that root seed. The hierarchy that the wallet actually uses could be anything. On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Thomas Voegtlin wrote: > I totally agree with gmaxwell here. The cost of interoperability is too > high. It would force us to freeze all features, and to require a broad > consensus everytime we want to add something new. > > In addition, some partial level of compatibility would probably lead to > users not able to recover all their funds when they enter their seed in > another wallet. That is not acceptable, and should be avoided. > > > > > Le 25/04/2014 17:46, Gregory Maxwell a =C3=A9crit : > > > > I don't believe that wallet interoperability at this level is possible > > in general except as an explicit compatibility feature. I also don't > > believe that it is a huge loss that it is so. > > > > The structure of the derivation defines and constrains functionality. > > You cannot be structure compatible unless you have the same features > > and behavior with respect to key management. To that extent that > > wallets have the same features, I agree its better if they are > > compatible=E2=80=94 but unless they are dead software they likely won't= keep > > the same features for long. > > > > Even if their key management were compatible there are many other > > things that go into making a wallet portable between systems; the > > handling of private keys is just one part: a complete wallet will > > have other (again, functionality specific) metadata. > > > > I agree that it would be it would be possible to support a > > compatibility mode where a wallet has just a subset of features which > > works when loaded into different systems, but I'm somewhat doubtful > > that it would be widely used. The decision to use that mode comes at > > the wrong time=E2=80=94 when you start, not when you need the features = you > > chose to disable or when you want to switch programs. But the obvious > > thing to do there is to just specify that a linear chain with no > > further branching is that mode: then that will be the same mode you > > use when someone gives you a master public key and asks you to use it > > for reoccurring changes=E2=80=94 so at least the software will get used= . > > > > Compatibility for something like a recovery tool is another matter, > > and BIP32 probably defines enough there that with a bit of extra data > > about how the real wallet worked that recovery can be successful. > > > > Calling it "vendor lock in" sounds overblown to me. If someone wants > > to change wallets they can transfer the funds=E2=80=94 manual handling = of > > private keys is seldom advisable, and as is they're going to lose > > their metadata in any case. No one expects to switch banks and to > > keep their account records at the new bank. And while less than > > perfect, the price of heavily constraining functionality in order to > > get another result is just too high. > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > > Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform > > Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software > > Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready > > Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform > > _______________________________________________ > > Bitcoin-development mailing list > > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform > Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software > Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready > Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform > http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > --001a11c1bfea4f6dd004f7efd1d5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Maybe the solution is to have a defined way to i= mport an unknown wallet?

This means that the gap space and a search = ordering needs to be defined.

Given a blockchain and a root se= ed, it should be possible to find all the addresses for that root seed.

The hierarchy that the wallet actually uses could be anything.


On Sat= , Apr 26, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Thomas Voegtlin <thomasv1@gmx.de> wrote:
I totally agree with gmaxwell here. The cost= of interoperability is too
high. It would force us to freeze all features, and to require a broad
consensus everytime we want to add something new.

In addition, some partial level of compatibility would probably lead to
users not able to recover all their funds when they enter their seed in
another wallet. That is not acceptable, and should be avoided.




Le 25/04/2014 17:46, Gregory Maxwell a =C3=A9crit :
>
> I don't believe that wallet interoperability at this level is poss= ible
> in general except as an explicit compatibility feature. I also don'= ;t
> believe that it is a huge loss that it is so.
>
> The structure of the derivation defines and constrains functionality.<= br> > You cannot be structure compatible unless you have the same features > and behavior with respect to key management. =C2=A0To that extent that=
> wallets have the same features, I agree its better if they are
> compatible=E2=80=94 but unless they are dead software they likely won&= #39;t keep
> the same features for long.
>
> Even if their key management were compatible there are many other
> things that go into making a wallet portable between systems; the
> handling of private keys is just one part: =C2=A0a complete wallet wil= l
> have other (again, functionality specific) metadata.
>
> I agree that it would be it would be possible to support a
> compatibility mode where a wallet has just a subset of features which<= br> > works when loaded into different systems, but I'm somewhat doubtfu= l
> that it would be widely used. The decision to use that mode comes at > the wrong time=E2=80=94 when you start, not when you need the features= you
> chose to disable or when you want to switch programs. But the obvious<= br> > thing to do there is to just specify that a linear chain with no
> further branching is that mode: then that will be the same mode you > use when someone gives you a master public key and asks you to use it<= br> > for reoccurring changes=E2=80=94 so at least the software will get use= d.
>
> Compatibility for something like a recovery tool is another matter, > and BIP32 probably defines enough there that with a bit of extra data<= br> > about how the real wallet worked that recovery can be successful.
>
> Calling it "vendor lock in" sounds overblown to me. =C2=A0If= someone wants
> to change wallets they can transfer the funds=E2=80=94 manual handling= of
> private keys is seldom advisable, and as is they're going to lose<= br> > their metadata in any case. =C2=A0No one expects to switch banks and t= o
> keep their account records at the new bank. And while less than
> perfect, the price of heavily constraining functionality in order to > get another result is just too high.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= --------
> Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform
> Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software
> Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready
> Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform > http://p= .sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-d= evelopment@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitco= in-development
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform
Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software
Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready
Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform
http://p.sf.n= et/sfu/ExoPlatform
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-develo= pment@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment

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