From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 10:50:50 -0800 Received: from mail-qk1-f184.google.com ([209.85.222.184]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1tRbth-0000C0-NS for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Sat, 28 Dec 2024 10:50:50 -0800 Received: by mail-qk1-f184.google.com with SMTP id af79cd13be357-7b6f1595869sf834821885a.3 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2024 10:50:49 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1735411843; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=NXvpACTFAyzRjeGG85KD6Wvor+KgX34qHyGw/Bk/RyHO61KdEHQR5pw/HibAfzHp6G DQ09QCMO68tvWR2EeKU73vgrkihuhtrbmYdjIifRXxSspUkSFA854Fy0jeD1aIzdEILJ jzwhxSCVotzZGg1/0tu1AjAhXabGbmDFi4ZD8gLeWyRYySGfkeNFNKQo3uBv9+EysgIX NV39zZajxJVobPsDBMsD+pMT0f75d/wLLVgWFNlAcVSdxY0uKcphLdHO1uXiitHFlsjo oW4Ew5DFjsequWTutOAPi8K1jPOI2E/zSMYEMGex1yvNBNzFFi9WiSInK7LSdiTI28zr LFEQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:content-transfer-encoding:cc:to :subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :sender:dkim-signature:dkim-signature; bh=wHYFO2q1c9GDc2ND/j3h8RFtr94PnOq4IBL2GAndplA=; fh=Sds07hEPeo5XCXqYiDoXmpEYWwx7jOFge4X7tNjVknE=; b=LZJW8Ij8qHTvxwj1v2Ckcl+60ATiWv1wJp2838MFZaMe35ZJu9n0mP6uMxVTPkkoOh LXRQTozEg8jMJRRDksEQstFHAcPkElEuv8hmybWlJXMHKVIqCKYbqJ2DAm/z//rmC2L6 /VSWvtZptUnIqFseznOTx4vXQBEFOXKZTg0Ff6T/r03pNwa5XwxSvlnQNV3WfW/Ifo12 hu+ZUeNTh3xH374yrcuhOjdT2YcPy3Rfz+aj1UQu+dxsiXPWPVYBpjW4kNlLHuZDzuyQ 9075LAn9RQz0kYNXZKQeFuC6ZASQjH4UTSuKK0ab+9pV4cna79ehMwTlyIHwS7MNN732 m+ow==; darn=gnusha.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=hFuHwluf; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eth3rs@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::535 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=eth3rs@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1735411843; x=1736016643; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject :message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:sender :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wHYFO2q1c9GDc2ND/j3h8RFtr94PnOq4IBL2GAndplA=; b=HqUSaTCraBF4jAITi9n2t9J9rsJNH4R0OVns8GAP0g7o0HVm7tz4/D9A3+PYq14/AN 3QRZWr5XKPQfqR6bpnLpkwF9isXeeEdLtheA1jf1yaph0GFLPx2j9YcQ56QAOnrnp1Qs ymVxq284LH2C7XQyrT3tNHR8BHEoejwcwzIgkf79F2rwfwOQJHfmcEvwTRaQZZsMr0uc 3mFJ16hLpqTkpFqB85h3FujQSzLpmmS9vIcWkwb8OsccCS6ykOCOaKdefhfLiKnGRm2s lVo4C0FINgaLTLL3IT0UnL1hexeqLFRvg/a5X0/PHbGa6TlQcaprJSpbaHWyU/UXiaMW wlHA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1735411843; x=1736016643; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject :message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wHYFO2q1c9GDc2ND/j3h8RFtr94PnOq4IBL2GAndplA=; b=UY/slDQsbA5zHbDg529Y8shFLNQ4FyqZQoBUchpbrbCig8OHGHLkQgCJMjGgVmf92H GL05Sh5NlKukHe1j5nlgYrs3LF+uioJLjpHJ7wtzm4dInz1VYbIFyZSrMH8F/nod8dSw MvnK0FAy12SecNIilFuJRw5eP7yntoW23noiC8E8pThRp6ME4Sp7TYMy6fqzCpq4CUaz 5Sl/C1Dg/G41k0I6dBe+zrIG1b4fVwcrzKDCY4tm1H7LxXR2hffXhWUcb6nb50S/lOGt 7Vv5J+Bqdczx3hAf6XLoUrRNd8T+/BassgTw68mVUEHLEI2SHEIjG0JHU3M0V9J7LZzD uxng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1735411843; x=1736016643; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject :message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=wHYFO2q1c9GDc2ND/j3h8RFtr94PnOq4IBL2GAndplA=; b=jhB7gsvKNIRHAcIOvJhnE/heXdtc731uSXGbOAxSQVKSzmraZvDtNiZHfvwZbLGrFj Va8hteMLgJ/BrYnEPPUOwrq74Z3X3+eI0MwsbJCEPv2GLzP/2p9L4nKP9feoOiMIFLlN 2TJb8KBToz2+A6DTxQeZAWzRpTYgZPb+c1yf+cOulT4Hg0NnsFJ9xYa3N0PxETbbOl0B 5TNfCd2QWj3A5dM0La9vJR+SgDUgScg/z3uccnovR2jwCQBaJXRP1BwRm1K3NMyTAQpU bhsp0R3JGZFcPhqMizPVnhOvLyjfECW1KKIiJrXKHQsRxbV9V9WUl+i69tBrRAYuP4lE aUYg== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCU5xdjJplObbguzuWbTWdQE6IW0nK3qvVCmtqRyMv3jaZPIgrgyJ/4ZEBC+/Wp8+068GtzqONRMFmwm@gnusha.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx5WomE7Y9g6aBYJeR6ndNsAzeBzAVwVzLshU6LvtQ7Aliv08mH mJqEtSTFjUcd/yJn3kfQZpKmKrHjI/93LE0eZVmdrk5SR/OC5kiT X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFHAEB8mJUbvmXTfLzO+RN413cOodwoGV1mWb1x18+ksbyvXWvYEnhxBRGhh12uV1zY6o0i+w== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5d51:0:b0:467:5144:8374 with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-46a4a8eb034mr440836821cf.25.1735411842844; Sat, 28 Dec 2024 10:50:42 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Received: by 2002:ac8:4a99:0:b0:466:98fc:1e42 with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-46a3b15d015ls134284621cf.1.-pod-prod-08-us; Sat, 28 Dec 2024 10:50:39 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:10c:b0:467:68a2:cb55 with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-46a4a8eb7eemr486845171cf.28.1735411839720; Sat, 28 Dec 2024 10:50:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1258:b0:7b6:d72a:7c26 with SMTP id af79cd13be357-7b9ab36d14ems85a; Sat, 28 Dec 2024 10:49:31 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:1d10:b0:434:ff45:cbbe with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-4366864414amr282805075e9.18.1735411769551; Sat, 28 Dec 2024 10:49:29 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1735411769; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=Q+w7+WJNLGrmMHoSayQNHuQoR8GsPNOh40HUxPWnmA+eA55p9kYGf97gnw2jou601d zMbgl/Ja+hj9WD/+Le7U5fqyybhsXkWMkI4KvqxSyPI4inn9cIouX/6r709qr01TYxL+ d5TzNFsgERMwlfAR1M+SUN+vItm0q9MpCKnK456Yl031fw9hQJah2QJI63OZ2Pe/tCio Aj4EtY6BrGo4+GoWBo3CsGpIop9+mxHmPdY7VeAS8cO1HPT+ie+mUY/CmaxKOkVK9ohl fNHqXK1Lna/qG0eVuyiqhLbejYs6bbwO5sSu+iBSGPvmdC6mNXp6el1BsSWAFlIAlVSs 7yBQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:dkim-signature; bh=3xQvAWFf86pkAPOML6dJJhEkNyXuyJepDTJyI8xTncs=; fh=D732/UvzG/ty1WdVR3KNpwDrC0haRDBXOHId0ppr1IU=; b=E49LMT/g9QfyOPtNtBSWkWVmux8LCe2W9voU2kHEouJ/t2hJFxGrZJ6mTZjyIXLclK Cz+rMDPTM9Dzf2efHh9OSB4n1eI3tzSSuoCA6aYbPMyUVB57v8Xl8MPiAB5UumAnQJBU GE5u8TyyGyIdg3A5KLz/+d6H4svEi5QPe08d1GnMoZZiYsVTeBOkMp59MjPq4HSCK2DS xDnj4rrpySd05zOggnkgosgNlVszfqP+qcmV/psQ1RCy0CB4FPgm6tdxZsR2c1/o6tuK 21trH30jKP4lczEwYw6nuM5fMK1wUb1RtD/8NlGY4A2gpXVqM3kGOGA7ZiiqC/MHq6uY bJ4g==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=hFuHwluf; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eth3rs@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::535 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=eth3rs@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Received: from mail-ed1-x535.google.com (mail-ed1-x535.google.com. [2a00:1450:4864:20::535]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5b1f17b1804b1-4364b05564bsi10627775e9.1.2024.12.28.10.49.29 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 28 Dec 2024 10:49:29 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eth3rs@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::535 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::535; Received: by mail-ed1-x535.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5d3d479b1e6so11078973a12.2 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2024 10:49:29 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuhTUTevNlTvfyAnSS5kc1yaGbY9dBiF7rnjREnOgRVQ27bfDe6Y8JECJzW4dP JmZlho8mOnlZpqu3z1/RvdxjcC4FUiVezGt2Hbw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:350b:b0:5d0:c7a7:ac13 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5d81de33ee2mr62840892a12.34.1735411768746; Sat, 28 Dec 2024 10:49:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ethan Heilman Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 13:48:52 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Mandatory Inclusion of Old Transactions in Blocks To: Michael Cassano Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Original-Sender: eth3rs@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=hFuHwluf; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eth3rs@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::535 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=eth3rs@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) You say: > Bitcoin network nodes will validate blocks only if they contain the requi= red percentage of old transactions. If a block fails to meet this criterion= , it will be deemed invalid and rejected by the network. This requires that network nodes reach consensus on what the oldest transactions are. This is the technical problem you need to solve to make your proposal practical, but I don't see that as a bad thing as it is a very interesting problem. If you can solve this problem, you can probably also solve the problem of how to enforce that Bitcoin miners only include the transactions with the highest fee rate. Enforcing the highest fee rate at the consensus level may be an effective tool against MEVil. This does seem like a hard problem to solve, because reaching consensus on transactions in mempool is very similar to what bitcoin blocks are already trying to achieve. Perhaps there is a more creative solution. It is worth looking at but it doesn't seem ready for a BIP. On Sat, Dec 28, 2024 at 11:26=E2=80=AFAM Michael Cassano wrote: > > I reject the premise of this proposed BIP. Mandating miners to include a= specific percentage of transactions based on age fundamentally undermines = the core principles of Bitcoin: decentralization, voluntary participation, = and free market dynamics. > > Bitcoin thrives because of its permissionless, free-market system. Miners= are incentivized to prioritize transactions based on fees and network cond= itions, not arbitrary mandates. Imposing a rule like this introduces centra= l planning into what is a decentralized system. > > The proposal claims to fight centralization, but will likely backfire. Ma= ndates like this add operational complexity and reduce efficiency for miner= s. Smaller miners, who are already operating on thin margins, will be dispr= oportionately impacted, driving them out of the market and further centrali= zing mining power. If censorship-resistant mining is valuable, let the free= market reward those who provide it. If there=E2=80=99s demand for miners = to include old or low-fee transactions, let someone build tools and pools t= hat prioritize this voluntarily. Solutions shall arise from innovation, no= t coercion. > > Best regards, > Mike > > On Sat, Dec 28, 2024 at 8:58=E2=80=AFAM developer wrote: >> >> Status: Draft >> Type: Standards Track >> Created: December 27, 2024 >> Abstract >> >> This proposal mandates miners to include at least 0.1% of transactions i= n their blocks from the oldest transactions by date, even if they have low = fees. This mechanism helps prevent mining centralization and censorship, en= couraging miners not to exclude certain transactions. >> Motivation >> >> The increasing centralization of Bitcoin mining and potential regulation= s that may require miners to censor or exclude certain transactions pose a = threat to the Bitcoin network. Mandating the inclusion of a small percentag= e of old transactions, even with low fees, ensures that no single miner can= censor block contents without sacrificing their own rewards. >> Specification >> >> Mandatory Inclusion of Old even if with Low-Fee Transactions >> Each miner is required to include at least 0.1% of the total tra= nsactions in a block from the oldest transactions in the mempool, even if t= heir fees are below the current market average. >> These transactions must be added to blocks regardless of their f= ees, prioritizing their age. >> >> Block Validation >> Bitcoin network nodes will validate blocks only if they contain = the required percentage of old transactions. >> If a block fails to meet this criterion, it will be deemed inval= id and rejected by the network. >> >> Incentives >> Miners are incentivized to include these transactions to ensure = their blocks are valid and to avoid losing block rewards. >> >> Advantages >> >> Censorship Resistance: Miners cannot censor transactions without for= feiting their rewards. >> Greater Inclusivity: Old and low-fee transactions are assured of bei= ng confirmed. >> Decentralization Prevention: Reducing the potential for centralized = censorship keeps the Bitcoin network decentralized. >> >> Considerations >> >> Impact on the Mempool: The mempool may become more dynamic and up-to= -date with fewer old, stagnant transactions. >> Resource Management: Miners will need to adjust their systems to aut= omatically identify and include relevant transactions. >> >> Conclusion >> >> Implementing this BIP will help maintain the integrity and decentralizat= ion of the Bitcoin network, preventing censorship and ensuring all transact= ions have a fair chance of confirmation. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoind= ev/fa4a8cd3-778c-4793-8dd4-5662475b6601n%40googlegroups.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoinde= v/CAAg3Je3k4RrQzUQ-x-D81NeMPsFuZTVYFKem9uN9MYP-CnmdRg%40mail.gmail.com. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAEM%3Dy%2BV5RTz2g8JvbLuZ3zs2RAmNPrN3WvKVfU7X69pD2j-8nw%40mail.gmail.com.