From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Sun, 20 Jul 2025 14:36:06 -0700 Received: from mail-oa1-f60.google.com ([209.85.160.60]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1udbhV-0007sm-Ng for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Sun, 20 Jul 2025 14:36:06 -0700 Received: by mail-oa1-f60.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2e9b472cfd1sf4809152fac.1 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2025 14:36:05 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1753047359; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=c2g9++U0RZdR4CiM/CCvWFfgyqkqqSlRRPtQVrCg5S4gH8CdpBTV0eOOrb2K9ZiBqE k9arMUDYiEzeos9jmEoyIUVHx060CVQLGIo2x5g7//DukbSI9mcgys3HKQWLYorC2twY pE8ho2YH64yQGIupvAG2Ladcc2/JkvaY5sGqptMlG5pup/KhX78JS0OlKuhhZp/YyBhy RW21DB4qYB8KVzRiEVy54YtVilep0aDSdO5yyMXwecHDpV64KtB0wYIFE+nze2ftgoHU DMlKTMOUx1vSRjDrWLjHFlVUIsQ9QECLp1U2cLwg3xgrNZDc5wMT6Dksso+SDWnByUrd idog== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:sender:dkim-signature :dkim-signature; bh=gOk7pVeXBmc0hxLoZhShttNaleYpRQT8FvL+wBCizGE=; fh=yiPBCiobfcehAyLT+sAiBM3K4I84255IXYXFCKO8O/I=; b=ZjK1+/zfiDVTjNmYyGlNJixYtQWzHilmLVTGEmYgBQAKo6Ho4TXq3fr14vQbgL0tCW ePc3wfqj7IO573jX2p0Spscnzi4C7cjvpx72Bcko+jqmnRfW0Hi0RVeoWoKza6rGHhxa BnqMVTFfL/sfaiV8YCH5jK7oxa2KZwJDzUtGWeIhyhnSnb1C3cO1B0X6Ybxz5/Tq5R8h OTK1Z843ooQmNyj+CzGueFQER9vRqXZPbu4HtRr/JCwmHh1Ryu/2lDAQoGFeSxfv92zf KoGKi+0JWuXnQp0kDfAiiTMkBtzjQl4LxmCD3/Ikb5FzTV7gQG26PiNNJd11BZ74nNUY QGYw==; darn=gnusha.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=QFz9UXXm; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eth3rs@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::531 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=eth3rs@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1753047359; x=1753652159; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=gOk7pVeXBmc0hxLoZhShttNaleYpRQT8FvL+wBCizGE=; b=no7+e/3ekNlSvmYk4RniRIjSZbCOno+T9NAoELl3HjCa0VlcfcEFaOsGuMCeEIQ/gO TuJePYKqui2WX0CB+xFwGq0K5N8C1HZv1oVdS9V/CV3xBrkfPG6CFP1b3hmagqyQlPA7 3euf0W6Qh/9od9aAQD6lFa0SbxzVKzBEp2hk6WDsOJWOmQbkVIpIbqbuR3zjM2A9WZbg N+3105S8ctMkWmoF7uz2nGHbmJR7mXB7Rx9ZBM2HDaM/4/ogec+7AHIKrodpuJ3L/t3t 5zYBNbfcxGr/8Bd39V3XF0537oMU4qTqNOt0NOhQcoR+sfhBF1b2d8d8RRaCiV5IKtJ6 zLEw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1753047359; x=1753652159; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=gOk7pVeXBmc0hxLoZhShttNaleYpRQT8FvL+wBCizGE=; b=k8yv+K47Ty4mBl6M40uZUpQ9ed9QSFjA5/EQxUJNrelBUUlIIfUKIjcox5zaBUrfGm HulDi8nH1m1pKimINxByUIQoB1GTFDsl3YyQeePylL4KMgRu0cc2GZfGXYQsBY6pNCQo RzSW9irjymzeEEwN4nay0T3EE7ikZQqJZKQ8RxCDDc9QycDE4AwgRa+78fR6v0rWznmK 9WBgQ9T8c76t9s8NSsrkr1FjHRJE18FwZ5pAl9hKzfvv04Z/8GPQ/DKN5hjo8t4qgUPt aFFQsi4HoTClY75atmlGPqA9cdSrS/YSPyulkGL57A81e3tTdtBn5b+KMJxwR6Faf0CM Fr5w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1753047359; x=1753652159; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=gOk7pVeXBmc0hxLoZhShttNaleYpRQT8FvL+wBCizGE=; b=NxB24N9HhkwswVhP8kE/z6uO2dje+sCQuZxhyia/AX0agDbu3OfRV8AD3CDnRtTCUY XsVcwh5XztN2PxhC0iRiY/BMtTWAzpXP4zxFVEhB778iczDVjkHTuquSTIzZjTGNh/lM 6TQbJVXyjGZsSQD03+e2ztYdgWqqnO6FCPLmmjlOPd9Xv3kTbFGW+qiNqsokyC+lU3AQ 4FLtgTGKL4UiY2osI2hzw+WIJwlPam98sP2Y1QUl2bvGnVcK2jM/vbugGeUl52Q60PZ2 srlV7W5EzfGNDYSBciziX4M40skvfkeX5K+JnjeV2o0H7jRFA6h+E2y6O4/9Sb1vR6o+ TLnQ== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCWAIRZR8M5JFehVUG9UdKPWcVMWDddnDtUvf1esEQg0NtMBL9WztHRSRpM4wICKBE+p+i339DUFiemS@gnusha.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyLtgUyJ30cW4fQYtRSkoMtQLlfakOH/fUoBATMjPnRN6Y3QXCj uP0INoHPLG5lp8+UiDP73EWHFdMQkttPplPvbm3w9Vo5GHQSMlnMjZL6 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGnOSo9S6N2PS5ycBqSP6qCc3XdVDyOg6K/JQQuWQQB73nvJfXiHvxiIXDdch+YVhTt0wYeFA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:331f:b0:2e9:1143:584e with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2ffb252452bmr14521015fac.39.1753047359394; Sun, 20 Jul 2025 14:35:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AZMbMZf1GMCO8bitUTNs3VdHSyhwuMdyVwY/j/5iE+eq40dokA== Received: by 2002:a05:6870:7403:b0:2ff:93c7:789e with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2ffca949de1ls2114087fac.1.-pod-prod-09-us; Sun, 20 Jul 2025 14:35:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1b06:b0:3fa:82f6:f74d with SMTP id 5614622812f47-41d04e8cc23mr12734760b6e.23.1753047355820; Sun, 20 Jul 2025 14:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a50:874f:0:b0:612:92c2:b494 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-612c289e38emsa12; Sun, 20 Jul 2025 14:30:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1ed2:b0:5ff:ef06:1c52 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-612859187eemr17938251a12.3.1753047031903; Sun, 20 Jul 2025 14:30:31 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1753047031; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=MSeC5Gt5eYSXZuc2XwW6x0T+/W1wc78fjPh7YF9dTWTNtHbviCANnCuG1yhAObGUIL FF1/H4OkArVZziE6VsxV+3M1KuQfHOtXtjlABJG2KK6DFmgMXkXHHU5G6q2fyWtf3/JC +pK4N4ELEKcHNv7na5Zbps5EsUckMt3pyLfjMrJpB16zFLKU8FgoUEo5jEEAbJzTWq6b OmtkeBAbZvNFLBvH14lXf4FK4wPf3zUT/7ynWbPHW1NJJPCoSs9F0KR7xZZmzFkV098P lFS603sUEUYA/pPt4KUOSo5SRLxbT6sGLfMGA/MCXpNRLCFatkD2+EUXcZ19Ry8i4o0m gniQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:dkim-signature; bh=fcxxVCBKsmh7HPVjtUt8aspwoM0YmGJFriD/JzhDnbQ=; fh=AraWG4EtKgnVZC3vx0kKXPCQKgjblcoyQOn27ZV865o=; b=CZQJNtIKIJIi5PBN2CeVqujuWPHn+aRRFQ1Hq9TA3UpkLBNGljohJdwA0D50elLWOS 9p4xRY3E3CCoU4G/kDLDAbEQ+trCHGSPsuNQVJmk2Xo2biqw1P3LxRtFNjah1liSrUS3 h2JwHHf2QtMQOdels4T9dDjlqD9oMFtX1ol5rFjtAFZb695f9JAhxqWtRn0nSCJTjwNi NluevqfF0gUlF8gHSygXVlXiPOnftYexhA5aiCkYoCr0hIFbuWMEv+Mh/vDlnzeGfmtn +Y0eCE1ufir6F1viYfYZmWA5WUJynNX0v3yMRUTWZsKeOrJoOhsypB1ZqFgIyn3vhxxk NI9g==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=QFz9UXXm; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eth3rs@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::531 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=eth3rs@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Received: from mail-ed1-x531.google.com (mail-ed1-x531.google.com. [2a00:1450:4864:20::531]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-612c8f592d9si165573a12.1.2025.07.20.14.30.31 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 20 Jul 2025 14:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eth3rs@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::531 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::531; Received: by mail-ed1-x531.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-612b67dcb89so5024510a12.1 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2025 14:30:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctq3x41YhGDz1MDOVh9g5Y9SMl7PH01IZcogrQ8V4O1EfIPkU4Hfn5pO7vHZpG mDvkN9g2LDxEFvSpALoLTZ63bBlwh5/1R6HPJIzXVllG6Dfe9YTRD0M2xS9XcRo10tujn1exzVv UeYoaagMUPdowh5KOzKu5hyncGc48moit+hn1hF8nJcRJG/xEV46RoVrpSzJy2bfR5EwoF3Kd8f 3faF1EYGS+mEjqaeMebIIFnZ30C8DQiVLqFkkau X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:50cf:b0:60c:62ec:670b with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-61285be793bmr16371238a12.23.1753047031057; Sun, 20 Jul 2025 14:30:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <-k1KNMwmXrdmMxpxMeJHAOYuKpMfeUpx7rqfIkta_NC6f7MtzlOYEdXbAhi-SztejTidNysh40ask8j9JNrzxoh1sUCH4F9tKV6tarkrWrc=@proton.me> In-Reply-To: <-k1KNMwmXrdmMxpxMeJHAOYuKpMfeUpx7rqfIkta_NC6f7MtzlOYEdXbAhi-SztejTidNysh40ask8j9JNrzxoh1sUCH4F9tKV6tarkrWrc=@proton.me> From: Ethan Heilman Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2025 17:29:53 -0400 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXwmdd0_B3TQ8gj58PwXNo7CIpf5kNaOUF48xaYzsOY0rmOTy12MKXI1-3g Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Human meaningful witness versioning To: conduition Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008f9134063a6311a5" X-Original-Sender: eth3rs@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=QFz9UXXm; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eth3rs@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::531 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=eth3rs@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --0000000000008f9134063a6311a5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks everyone. Given that so far everyone else is opposed, BIP-360 will use Witness Version 2. Does anyone remember why BIP-0173 added a special rule to make Witness Versions legible in this way? It might be useful to document here for future discussions on address encoding. On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 11:19=E2=80=AFAM conduition = wrote: > Hi Ethan, > > I appreciate your intent behind making things easier for humans to > understand, but I don't think it matters enough to break from the existin= g > pattern of version incrementation. It's also a bit too late, given that > quantum-vulnerable address types P2WKH and P2WSH already took the bc1q=E2= =80=8B > prefix. > > More important will be other small minutiae like naming the output type > (P2QRH? or P2TSH? or P2TTH? etc), and practical necessities like > fully-defined post-quantum signature verification opcodes. > > regards, > conduition > On Friday, July 18th, 2025 at 6:00 PM, Ethan Heilman > wrote: > > I want to propose a new criteria for allocating Witness versions based on > human meaningfulness and see if there is support for this approach or if > the community is highly allergic to this idea. > > Bech32 (BIP-0173 > ) was > designed such that the Witness version is the first character in an addre= ss > after the =E2=80=9Cbc1=E2=80=9D address prefix > > Witness Version 0: bc1q=E2=80=A6 > Witness Version 1: bc1p=E2=80=A6 > > Witness version 2: bc1z=E2=80=A6 > > Witness version 3: bc1r=E2=80=A6 > > Witness version 4: bc1y=E2=80=A6 > Witness version 5: bc19=E2=80=A6 > > Witness version 6: bc1x=E2=80=A6 > > Witness version 7: bc18=E2=80=A6 > > Witness version 8: bc1g=E2=80=A6 > > =E2=80=A6 > > So far we have been allocating Witness Versions in incrementing numeric > order (0,1,...). I want to suggest we allocate Witness Versions mnemonic = to > make it easier to look at an address and determine the output type. > > This originally came up over the question of if BIP-360 should use Witnes= s > Version 3 to get bc1r=E2=80=A6 for P2QRH (r for resistant) or the next nu= merically > available 2, but I want to see how the community feels about it as a > general pattern for future softforks (z for compressed/zipped output, y f= or > yield outputs, etc=E2=80=A6). > > Making it easier for users to understand the output type associated is > likely to grow in importance over time as we retire output types, add > policy restricting the relay of certain output types or output types beco= me > insecure due to cryptanalytic breaks. While wallet software should flag > dangerous output types, some wallets may not invest in such functionality > or the user may be using a paper wallet. This is the same argument as > prefixing addresses with =E2=80=9Cbc=E2=80=9D for mainnet and =E2=80=9Ctc= =E2=80=9D for testnet. > > Note: the Witness version is sometimes called the SegWit version. > > Thanks, > Ethan > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAEM%3Dy%2BWkLOVJ787jjr5zZgK= sAHxHkgdZjANqGycEh4K7ZSddSA%40mail.gmail.com > . > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAEM%3Dy%2BWUpbzJBU6nYyM5Lj3ByD199Fxubvc50uqkv8uEd7GJtA%40mail.gmail.com. --0000000000008f9134063a6311a5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks everyone. Given that so far everyone else is oppose= d, BIP-360 will use Witness Version 2.

Does anyone remember why BIP-= 0173 added a special rule to make Witness Versions legible in this=C2=A0way= ? It might be useful to document here for future discussions on address enc= oding.

<= br>

On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 11:19=E2=80=AFAM co= nduition <conduition@proton.me> wrote:
Hi Ethan,

I appreciate your intent = behind making things easier for humans to understand, but I don't think= it matters enough to break from the existing pattern of version incrementa= tion. It's also a bit too late, given that quantum-vulnerable address t= ypes P2WKH and P2WSH already took the bc1q=E2=80=8B prefix.

More important will= be other small minutiae like naming the output type (P2QRH? or P2TSH? or P= 2TTH? etc), and practical necessities like fully-defined post-quantum signa= ture verification opcodes.

regards,
conduition
On Friday, July 18th, 2025 at 6:00 PM, Ethan Heilman <eth3rs@gmail.com> wrote:=

I want to propose a new criter= ia for allocating Witness versions based on human meaningfulness and see if= there is support for this approach or if the community is highly allergic = to this idea.

Bech32 (BIP-01= 73) was designed such that the Witness version is the first character= in an address after the =E2=80=9Cbc1=E2=80=9D address prefix

Witness Version 0: bc1q=E2=80=A6
Witness Version 1: bc1p=E2=80=A6<= /span>

Witness version 2: bc1z=E2=80=A6

Witness version 3: bc1r=E2=80=A6=

Witness version 4: bc1y=E2=80=A6
Witness version 5: bc19=E2=80= =A6

Witness version 6: bc1x=E2=80=A6

Witness version 7: bc18=E2= =80=A6

Witness version 8: bc1g=E2=80=A6

=E2=80=A6


<= p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><= span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);= background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-= asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">So far= we have been allocating Witness Versions in incrementing numeric order (0,= 1,...). I want to suggest we allocate Witness Versions mnemonic to make it = easier to look at an address and determine the output type.


<= p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><= span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);= background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-= asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline">This o= riginally came up over the question of if BIP-360 should use Witness Versio= n 3 to get bc1r=E2=80=A6 for P2QRH (r for resistant) or the next numericall= y available 2, but I want to see how the community feels about it as a gene= ral pattern for future softforks (z for compressed/zipped output, y for yie= ld outputs, etc=E2=80=A6).


Making it easier for users to understan= d the output type associated is likely to grow in importance over time as w= e retire output types, add policy restricting the relay of certain output t= ypes or output types become insecure due to cryptanalytic breaks. While wal= let software should flag dangerous output types, some wallets may not inves= t in such functionality or the user may be using a paper wallet. This is th= e same argument as prefixing addresses with =E2=80=9Cbc=E2=80=9D for mainne= t and =E2=80=9Ctc=E2=80=9D for testnet.


Note: the Witness version = is sometimes called the SegWit version.

Thanks,
Ethan

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googl= egroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://gr= oups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAEM%3Dy%2BWkLOVJ787jjr5zZgKsAHxHkgdZjAN= qGycEh4K7ZSddSA%40mail.gmail.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoind= ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/= d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAEM%3Dy%2BWUpbzJBU6nYyM5Lj3ByD199Fxubvc50uqkv8uEd7GJtA%= 40mail.gmail.com.
--0000000000008f9134063a6311a5--