From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E69E0FE1 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2018 00:02:55 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-wm1-f50.google.com (mail-wm1-f50.google.com [209.85.128.50]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B36472C3 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2018 00:02:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wm1-f50.google.com with SMTP id r1-v6so13826347wmh.0 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2018 17:02:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=y4ixCiMNVT0SYLsVdJ86yRBe+AvBStYdY34xUTR7mU4=; b=p4dn6Bibcz/tmF6Vhsnork+k/j5KTWb3GJanZq9vaipZCB33952+gs5/68PjOOvQzU WVarCrsW2oPefOxfsckcyOaPXACZWrnMLvIDtWbLVotYcwr5fcEMw68//v7AmS7qRZzK yw8vNu/F6KnnEXInAWj925UrK4itkIEiA4TZOo/eGWE9wtFOF64vkdLjI+7tqvvmi46x YvzfKTyF/HRN7rbImeRxuSkILOOy0lH3fVL3fdshQ+simq1n1J9SMcKDbue1eeBGEOas X3P7+a0da7OMhrGoGDXWw5DHARYeLjv2Gzg4DUKM/zgVMDN0Nt+Acyjt5Tou6toKI92A rbbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=y4ixCiMNVT0SYLsVdJ86yRBe+AvBStYdY34xUTR7mU4=; b=RxTT43Zs4wqCxGeF/0pqwYXc5l/TaZVzX+qoegWos15OOyI5Y854y8GJzk0OomZriW V3uEx/u0MZUp7AzSEzb9JBLlmJc1i5CCAMieIWMnZziZpQntAlfQnSAZQJCZOpvwICdi qbENYd8G0feTQ5swakiLxIzVYF3oqjM3bzCWL85mEcT3ut9Zk0t0/WBxOiOX+gDxop5X rAHES0EJkB3DNykB/uOQtKACnt5BsRBC/AwSgGLKRm8eJZNsnR31gXg56KNIF2tHKHTX 2KPucBi68oeUteM65+LrpTKXB3l4Tp3hZAS57xNeKT1tCaDxRKJmS5n5IwBFlyXWGBlV QbjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfojZFSROv1D7AuHmYN694Ryw/E/Tke+DlfqUwM1+RzUsd5MfVEmA 9Epi0/qAXIZlSuacoTCIEXDaUcdqdkF4MExvc5c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV63/Q1QAW8wqtF0oKE79XywX3ydJOAf54+bTOglBKk7TIPz7iJKWPWeWlV9VxIz9DDbHdMZpXqaTNCC4UMsbxkI= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:a386:: with SMTP id m128-v6mr2300673wme.139.1537920173169; Tue, 25 Sep 2018 17:02:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: CryptAxe Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 17:00:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: willtech@live.com.au, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009d61520576baf1ec" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 01:06:42 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [bitcoin-discuss] Proposal to replace full blockchain with recent history plus UTXO Set X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 00:02:56 -0000 --0000000000009d61520576baf1ec Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Feel free to take a look at my implementation of UTXO loading (for core ~0.16.99) here: https://github.com/DriveNetTESTDRIVE/DriveNet/commit/60189ea9a23865180e25207ecf66f95d84f642c6 Note that this has consensus implications, and that there are bugs (some of which are fixed in later commits to that repository) On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 4:56 PM Damian Williamson via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > A fairly decent rework would be needed but it seems that the idea has > merit initially. > > > As it is now, it is not only that a utxo exists but, that the transaction > it references and the block it is within can also be fully validated. > > > So, if a utxo block set type existed then by consensus every so often a > bunch of blocks containing just the validated utxo set to a given height, > say 100,000 blocks below the current blockheight, and necessary header data > could be appended onto the valid chain and nodes would be free to drop all > preceding blocks. I suspect that many wouldn't and that even many new nodes > would still desire to download the full blockchain but, for the use case > you mention it would make sense. > > > If done [right/wrong] it may even make Satoshi's fortune spendable. > Something to watch out for. > ------------------------------ > *From:* bitcoin-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org < > bitcoin-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org> on behalf of Dave > Scotese via bitcoin-discuss > *Sent:* Wednesday, 26 September 2018 1:46:54 AM > *To:* Bitcoin Discuss > *Subject:* Re: [bitcoin-discuss] Proposal to replace full blockchain with > recent history plus UTXO Set > > The image at imgur and the pastebin both reference block 542324 but the > correct block is 542322. As the pastebin shows, the decimal and hex > representations I gave for the block height did not match, and this is > why. If you use the Merkle root for block 542322 instead of 542324, you'll > be able to see the correct Game of Life play out and make the apron image. > > Dave. > > On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 11:38 AM Dave Scotese > wrote: > > I thought I didn't have access to the dev list and so intended to post the > following proposal to this discussion list, but used the wrong email > address. Anyway, my email did get into the dev list ( > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2018-September/016420.html) > but I'll repeat it here: > > I've been working on an idea that relieves full nodes of storing the > entire blockchain. Open source software generally relies on the fact that > "enough" people agree that it's secure. Bitcoin software works that way > too. So if you understand enough to see that a UTXO set is valid at a > certain block height, and there are enough other people who agree and that > set is recognizable by humans, then we can use that UTXO set and ditch the > blockchain that existed up to that point. It would save a lot of storage > and make it a lot easier to run a full node. > > Have you reviewed the source code from which your wallets were compiled? > At some point, we all trust third parties, but generally (at least among > people who understand Bitcoin) they are large composite groups so that no > small group or individual can profit from cheating. > > I look forward to answering any concerns and also to any offers of help. > I used block 542324 of the Bitcoin blockchain to make a memorable > experience using the game of life. I wrote a script for the open-source > Game-of-Life software Golly and shared it in the paste at > https://pastebin.com/k5Ssc0qk. It produces the image at > https://imgur.com/a/rwIQuVz. If someone can tell me how to get a UTXO Set > from the bitcoin client, I'll send them $50 of bitcoin. Then I could get > the SHA256 hash of that set and try to make a recognizable checkpoint for > the Bitcoin blockchain. If someone runs Golly and shares a video of the > game playing out (into the apron-shaped image), I'll send them $50 of > bitcoin too. > > In a few decades when the blockchain has grown to a few terabytes and the > UTXO Set is still just a few gigabytes, I'd like to see more people start > running full nodes without the hassle of a long wait and loads of storage > space. That's what stops me from running one. > > > > -- > I like to provide some work at no charge to prove my value. Do you need a > techie? > I own Litmocracy and Meme Racing > (in alpha). > I'm the webmaster for The Voluntaryist > which now accepts Bitcoin. > I also code for The Dollar Vigilante . > "He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules" - Satoshi > Nakamoto > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --0000000000009d61520576baf1ec Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Feel free to take a look at my imple= mentation of UTXO loading (for core ~0.16.99) here:


Note that this has consensus implications, and that there are bugs (s= ome of which are fixed in later commits to that repository)

<= /div>

On Tue, Se= p 25, 2018 at 4:56 PM Damian Williamson via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation= .org> wrote:

A fairly decent rework would be n= eeded but it seems that the idea has merit initially.


As it is now, it is not only that= a utxo exists but, that the transaction it references and the block it is = within can also be fully validated.


So, if a utxo block set type exis= ted then by consensus every so often a bunch of blocks containing just the = validated utxo set to a given height, say 100,000 blocks below the current = blockheight, and necessary header data could be appended onto the valid chain and nodes would be free to dro= p all preceding blocks. I suspect that many wouldn't and that even many= new nodes would still desire to download the full blockchain but, for the = use case you mention it would make sense.


If done [right/wrong] it may even= make Satoshi's fortune spendable. Something to watch out for.

From: = bitcoin-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org <bitcoin-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org> on behalf = of Dave Scotese via bitcoin-discuss <bitcoin-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Sent: Wednesday, 26 September 2018 1:46:54 AM
To: Bitcoin Discuss
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-discuss] Proposal to replace full blockchain w= ith recent history plus UTXO Set
=C2=A0
The image at imgur and the pastebin both reference block 542324 but th= e correct block is 542322.=C2=A0 As the pastebin shows, the decimal and hex= representations I gave for the block height did not match, and this is why= .=C2=A0 If you use the Merkle root for block 542322 instead of 542324, you'll be able to see the correct Game of Li= fe play out and make the apron image.

Dave.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 11:38 AM Dave Scotese <dscotese@litmocracy.c= om> wrote:
I thought I didn't have access to the dev list and so = intended to post the following proposal to this discussion list, but used t= he wrong email address.=C2=A0 Anyway, my email did get into the dev list (<= a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2018-Sept= ember/016420.html" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipe= rmail/bitcoin-dev/2018-September/016420.html) but I'll repeat it here:

I've been working on an idea that relieves full nodes = of storing the entire blockchain. Open source software generally relies on = the fact that "enough" people agree that it's secure. Bitcoin= software works that way too. So if you understand enough to see that a UTXO set is valid at a certain block height, and there are e= nough other people who agree and that set is recognizable by humans, then w= e can use that UTXO set and ditch the blockchain that existed up to that po= int. It would save a lot of storage and make it a lot easier to run a full node.

Have you reviewed the source code from which your wallets were compiled? At= some point, we all trust third parties, but generally (at least among peop= le who understand Bitcoin) they are large composite groups so that no small= group or individual can profit from cheating.

I look forward to answering any concerns and also to any offers of help.=C2= =A0=C2=A0 I used block 542324 of the Bitcoin blockchain to make a memorable= experience using the game of life. I wrote a script for the open-source Ga= me-of-Life software Golly and shared it in the paste at h= ttps://pastebin.com/k5Ssc0qk. It produces the image at https://imgur.com= /a/rwIQuVz. If someone can tell me how to get a UTXO Set from the bitco= in client, I'll send them $50 of bitcoin. Then I could get the SHA256 h= ash of that set and try to make a recognizable checkpoint for the Bitcoin blockchain. If someone runs Golly and shares a = video of the game playing out (into the apron-shaped image), I'll send = them $50 of bitcoin too.

In a few decades when the blockchain has grown to a few terabytes and the U= TXO Set is still just a few gigabytes, I'd like to see more people star= t running full nodes without the hassle of a long wait and loads of storage= space. That's what stops me from running one.


--
I like to provide some work at no charge to prove my value= . Do you need a techie?=C2=A0
I own Litmocracy and Meme Racing (in alpha).
I'm the webmaster for The Voluntaryist which now accepts Bitcoin.
I also code for T= he Dollar Vigilante.
"He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules" - Sato= shi Nakamoto
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
--0000000000009d61520576baf1ec--