From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [140.211.166.136]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC39BC002D for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2022 17:52:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E0160B49 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2022 17:52:31 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org D3E0160B49 Authentication-Results: smtp3.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=satoshilabs.com header.i=@satoshilabs.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=google header.b=Zzl3dR9M X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cioEQA0QdkiN for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2022 17:52:30 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org BD65E607F2 Received: from mail-yw1-x1129.google.com (mail-yw1-x1129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1129]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD65E607F2 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2022 17:52:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-yw1-x1129.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-31bf3656517so177209397b3.12 for ; Thu, 07 Jul 2022 10:52:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=satoshilabs.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FK1fWq/Geo+6kjJ9UtV6MmXz/FNsHGflAUiaTds3u7w=; b=Zzl3dR9MPiGWFXBr2PzxxPlGNGfFPoO7HeSO3jt1HVYGTuz2kweqw60h4dfNZBjt0X GUJDvkdCqcYO+WclJu7HrsDW0FKTM+1iT/ZLgFkjtFCPGNHMMfQfW/E9VqE0EDmFxgot H30gDFF7Lu09wESlyaF/SDcES5NMHLdEM1JkSode4kxyXKbhipSexgD2ILuAOCcTPsYQ WsyBSHpF5gV1V+H5rNwTRlN54culnIlyHEnJByL2UQX/otC5nT7P+pGsd2va0RjiHYXq 5MKzLtvGOIRM120/9ZpLP8DWg7brGF2LHwcY/UIxjI6wnOrBzN2aqGLzTzTdU+CL6BKR IQyA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FK1fWq/Geo+6kjJ9UtV6MmXz/FNsHGflAUiaTds3u7w=; b=vekTw0qVypzcAcsYKpgZ//kqKysCYaKwzchVXlM96CXoKfz0J9eVvCS0HmOBTkrU5X ccUEFuJeEENBsXhcuJcHciL9EPKtK7JExbu8jtO/88QKdJR71/HmB4QguhoHoMbalw4r vEqPSeQbVz1CTVxDOUkE9fAH8Z4RYQ+Ij9ez8deunni1tMSrb2wrFLKPwPqqeWFBHNHy XXZrtaYrtEbm3gvaBpFOCnEvtBxiZlR18d/KsKy6KhfVYyHOjlCiVg8ANXRXYlX9uKCX D8eTJt/C08A4nk9PSqR2QGYArm/qdSNEAgq+W/HLxLkvkW9p7QujHMDJy8R01Q8qRZpZ xEsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora8ebrrmFjyfhjqC+SuZhizVKb1WsKcERGFjMccQxEgqymY1CVPc 1HwrLg9Bgj4SHwVm7Vn2yBtN7+IqyKOfX6WKoaF66X89jQooBg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1u9d5b1bDLMNqMF0cBNZyoYIx8m4TjbyewMsAHwiouD3CLBQamhDEB31tjmIu99vElnauE+xENtYOtJpdVQHr8= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:f9c2:0:b0:317:e067:5104 with SMTP id j185-20020a0df9c2000000b00317e0675104mr52631613ywf.45.1657216349493; Thu, 07 Jul 2022 10:52:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0dc0e945-9e12-43ad-bd12-fcc0e18e4013@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Pavol Rusnak Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 19:52:18 +0200 Message-ID: To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion , Bram Cohen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d3f92c05e33abfbb" Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] No Order Mnemonic X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2022 17:52:32 -0000 --000000000000d3f92c05e33abfbb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" There is. Just encode the index of permutation used to scramble the otherwise sorted list. For 12 words you need to store 12! = ~32 bits so 3 words should be enough. Repetitions make this more difficult, though. On Thu 7. 7. 2022 at 19:41, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 7:43 AM Anton Shevchenko via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > >> I made a python implementation for a different mnemonic encoding. The >> encoding requires user to remember words but not the order of those words. >> The code is open (MIT license) at https://github.com/sancoder/noomnem > > > Thanks Anton. There's an interesting mathematical question of whether it's > possible to make a code like this which always uses the BIP-39 words for > the same key as part of its encoding, basically adding a few words as error > correction in case the order is lost or confused. If the BIP-39 contains a > duplicate you can add an extra word. > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > -- Best Regards / S pozdravom, Pavol "stick" Rusnak Co-Founder, SatoshiLabs --000000000000d3f92c05e33abfbb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is. Just encode the index of permutation used to sc= ramble the otherwise sorted list. For 12 words you need to store 12! =3D ~3= 2 bits so 3 words should be enough.=C2=A0

=
Repetitions make this more difficult, though.=C2=A0
=

O= n Thu 7. 7. 2022 at 19:41, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.o= rg> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 7:43 AM Anton Shevchenko via bitcoin-dev <bitc= oin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
I made a python implementation for a different m= nemonic encoding. The encoding requires user to remember words but not the = order of those words.
The code is open (MIT license) at https://github.com/sancoder/noo= mnem

Thanks Anton. There's an inter= esting mathematical question of whether it's possible to make a code li= ke this which always uses the BIP-39 words for the same key as part of its = encoding, basically adding a few words as error correction in case the orde= r is lost or confused. If the BIP-39 contains a duplicate you can add an ex= tra word.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
--
<= div>
Best Regards / S pozdravom,

Pavol &= quot;stick" Rusnak
Co-Founder, SatoshiLabs
=
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