From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFBCAC0037 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 2023 03:21:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A640140111 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 2023 03:21:16 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org A640140111 Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 header.b=e1Za/I1F X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BRFiIRaETHEo for ; Sat, 30 Dec 2023 03:21:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-il1-x132.google.com (mail-il1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::132]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F2D6400BA for ; Sat, 30 Dec 2023 03:21:15 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org 9F2D6400BA Received: by mail-il1-x132.google.com with SMTP id e9e14a558f8ab-35fcd6f8aa6so28474035ab.0 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2023 19:21:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1703906474; x=1704511274; darn=lists.linuxfoundation.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=cFGNTPGksVZkcc66XgtXMLuWb3MGrstPSzCucVHMO8Y=; b=e1Za/I1FzGlVp860FBW87wM/N5pcAHVZoe0OJbIxgZc6c4wvrA/YzaAetSHCNIahkC yOBudf4qH0WOJl4B4lcXPh7QVTANnzQLmgzPS5RB49dqVaooPpkveBvQdZT84DDKqTyD zrbckouMszcv6CA3+H3rlPCgGQAkOr4iE59FQ9PTxzfX89yGTG0H82aLeC39euIAjWZZ NHUyYsCJnZcFJX3s6BCH4Nis/fgE4xLEsCbbwSj4nRfba5v0td3MqzaEEDyYImh0tFc6 j61Lf+7zpW/p4WVIZ+Nfc8NONqcSfU0AcASn+lxEWsMGq5vH0raZwDQpObPpEvKQ6Eof wnyA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1703906474; x=1704511274; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=cFGNTPGksVZkcc66XgtXMLuWb3MGrstPSzCucVHMO8Y=; b=OwZbdQHlnxj7G3clGKPAm4Zx7PLcBxTZc+/ECsDsAXcv1gVVWEe5CnEtHQ0Nm+rvtF FGg66RVagBXNin4dEMT9zRyCwNkwEKIOsmjxAWR/1ynN/8o6iZqNGpSXrv/8hERLTeFR R24/JXbbMu9x1D/za/v8ElSIBOOCGurTvDv9ja6Vg2bNWr3GFD9dYDBW+1xLLQW4Xkue TXCilmXPlnuDp1md6riaUBtBoJ/j7e084CsBcm/T9bIMM+we6eRfe2wiXsSKDzBIEdNr LXEgL0ql4l/i09dUJV2DZKSxzzeXAq8dcvHY+sGCJ8+lCMIT9pFKC43x6Tm6TDa+CNW7 IQ1g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yz6TjcjdLtkRu/YJwm7U2GFI5TCoHuxaEla2kJhBVqFOBQtPOMe q8U7rsDYQqlmMcho1YHM4gwNPCjTIjkmtmuA9FH0Ff00Sq2Qqg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEtSNRXMxKouA30vYlztzGuQExkKj1+C3YFAkGygsyjFZr1KVczFt4hItYz2e2q/HjJSrPT4RwxJrniYSPQjEQ= X-Received: by 2002:a92:c24b:0:b0:35f:87ac:10d4 with SMTP id k11-20020a92c24b000000b0035f87ac10d4mr15763249ilo.5.1703906474601; Fri, 29 Dec 2023 19:21:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8656E5B3-EDC7-4C00-93AB-C61AC6C22563@voskuil.org> <786297315b27fdecc1a21cc40ef4b993@dtrt.org> <7b210ceabf8f5f4b58b2f6b68e6a7037@dtrt.org> In-Reply-To: <7b210ceabf8f5f4b58b2f6b68e6a7037@dtrt.org> From: Nagaev Boris Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 00:20:37 -0300 Message-ID: To: "David A. Harding" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 15:58:26 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Lightning Safely With Feerate-Dependent Timelocks X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 03:21:17 -0000 On Sat, Dec 30, 2023 at 12:11=E2=80=AFAM David A. Harding w= rote: > > On 2023-12-29 15:17, Nagaev Boris wrote: > > Feerate-Dependent Timelocks do create incentives to accept out-of-band > > fees to decrease in-band fees and speed up mining of transactions > > using FDT! Miners can make a 5% discount on fees paid out-of-band and > > many people will use it. Observed fees decrease and FDT transactions > > mature faster. It is beneficial for both parties involved: senders of > > transactions save 5% on fees, miners get FDT transactions mined faster > > and get more profits (for the sake of example more than 5%). > > Hi Nagaev, > > That's an interesting idea, but I don't think that it works due to the > free rider problem: miner Alice offers a 5% discount on fees paid out of > band now in the hopes of collecting more than 5% in extra fees later due > to increased urgency from users that depended on FDTs. However, > sometimes the person who actually collects extra fees is miner Bob who > never offered a 5% discount. By not offering a discount, Bob earns more > money on average per block than Alice (all other things being equal), > eventually forcing her to stop offering the discount or to leave the > market. > > Additionally, if nearly everyone was paying discounted fees out of band, > participants in contract protocols using FDTs would know to use > proportionally higher FDT amounts (e.g. 5% over their actual desired > fee), negating the benefit to miners of offering discounted fees. > > -Dave Good points. It makes sense! --=20 Best regards, Boris Nagaev