From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Thu, 01 May 2025 11:07:59 -0700 Received: from mail-oi1-f191.google.com ([209.85.167.191]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1uAYKF-0007LI-0x for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Thu, 01 May 2025 11:07:59 -0700 Received: by mail-oi1-f191.google.com with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3ff0944ab23sf925326b6e.2 for ; Thu, 01 May 2025 11:07:59 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1746122873; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=IVLmp4X/GZkdO8xUF7CMQRYofrwOCSAJk/Jf+sAMjnfpvXUnL6WLR5hU4EiNWWfG2X iH1PUso7OnduDnCDEH/0GcolQT5I9eNT6bNrr3Y7QqIkeAQmpefWgYMaBU+YlaYmM1iJ fbGpSFNoBP6tZnD+1bCwplN5S/pqriQXCue0AWjyl3sFj86ktCpooc8FHVKT8+Yxsw49 7y1xkdZj7M+rPuiJwl9QRTcFrybSPTXAabXx+AspXNMDf473D4zWrr8Iw9r7QQygr7s/ y8VNewu3e8WvjQbqi0Wd4rU6wEpvB0DrBI3xguTF9gvkAYyxZiwjhEi7l4cmXJGq17Tm /zBQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:content-transfer-encoding:cc:to :subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :sender:dkim-signature:dkim-signature; bh=GupxYgRPWU0eLTcBwpcs6NAOTjOIpnmDYHWLFWSaTOk=; fh=oQ8WDVVBmhHcPTR6BJTbXqr8SvTu/P++U2SOOB8iA/E=; b=f7XE2zzK0Q3SVElfA2DISsLHJn2RgETg0nqkf/glp6oEWXPhauDgAHEIron+gOgLlR h/KI7yBF6pD4BSnyot/Cm3SVj0aPCi7moVgaTUdWeXi1yJ7YglTzCUoCA0WbU7U9SiYq PNWGZSBOB2wYkAYxmwkrR9GsGeKpvxLRPu0jurmjnD7DK/Ndd6KcEiXDwEN5vCBa0b5R GVpMH4vkVj97diZ1eqD+9f1bs0eT5kHka4mWUg0wghaQDVJimsXng+g8bQ+tp0FZzr8O zw9K2oztVkH2bpgovofrB87fwP2KwQXl6JYJbxJrp+qeSMJ9D2d16yXBXZ5qrEsHr3ic 3BjQ==; darn=gnusha.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=NOo86snf; spf=pass (google.com: domain of bnagaev@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bnagaev@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1746122873; x=1746727673; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject :message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:sender :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=GupxYgRPWU0eLTcBwpcs6NAOTjOIpnmDYHWLFWSaTOk=; b=EdrTyB8z0DXVxNykbLyzjlZywncKPDJFgj9RLFFjnQAvouZ/q2pObmq1oYAI22UiGX Rg3D8mAlaRR2N9HFuhN1jQjaDAnW8NisDKgBLJ6Zi33aDohYJjvWd3rwDvuOuPMe75x7 1kNDzslwgXwhGHPRzvcjJnmS36UsZEW9ZmIjVxnF578b6cINxSKom0CJEYe8y1KKgDHM 2/ZOLrnBFx+2HqN1nDE0KPae/9GsDy95kyDwgqT5IajU/+8oA/xPee1wozPMA1og9YcZ tGdP6r189BE1DOFZ2sBYQjLZGo2DkBxF3DktSm7Bq1YhslSgOSX48vHFixVEiIrESLq2 iHog== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1746122873; x=1746727673; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject :message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=GupxYgRPWU0eLTcBwpcs6NAOTjOIpnmDYHWLFWSaTOk=; b=Ao0ACZQMiQFaaGXoSlr/4nBuRiCEBees6LE4n1MvWdIeUteYD+VLbGdfwkpoERSSbG 6zEXZqy1mzOGrxqDYIHZCgaxdHwFoYQ89nS1xDQmuRbOAKPC0FqSDsVDi4Hap1jnDC9i bOQPXcujHEX6hp9o5QPiyu4pIDz7vmI9GhSi5Gt/H3Lrm2Fv7rvncW12AUlse++zTt3D IMGpLEam3ds/fKQRwXjhbBLbJz8KPxj7NUH9QOds9AcYBiyt+i3AkMtI5ldMkhgdb5Jz C64mYtMAmwOJMkBQQWIuDwCIUvfGA7wt2N30MHyX2sNB2ENKtnA2bVXZPFJ9ST9pluub +VlQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1746122873; x=1746727673; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject :message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=GupxYgRPWU0eLTcBwpcs6NAOTjOIpnmDYHWLFWSaTOk=; b=NCZJzI1leVZOpZX0wDAllBs9mSv6UEZhmIk4UDzvkd7pj7D19rh0VWTwrLS8foPd7t gyQcs/yuoq28hfVQP+a9MxLry0jJq7t/NZNsmTKeNQQst5yKxRQfpPz13pblYWZZdhXX BVSqeU4xoLCkTwuZmHrTMuB3CbT8i0okYHKey+gHDYY7UwbdMb7yHjKL1FtxDldwsFIg j/UzAuxQp0VjfbndpGTMOX6ecs6rnsuG3AniyTpDoRiwz3yTu8CyT/i/qd2k4uM/RU9G LYoQMyZtY/aMwC+2/2kMNaKkV5VhBW7Ug3if+axJj9hrJmNPomwK3yNGsKUJKCOstexU oEbQ== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCUfAAgikrX7kS17fuf7yrqmuBJ2cn+w7bqRsnA+ThLS6KGUGmiBC1MkC8mwZkv0e+imUCUcsgL6ORg3@gnusha.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwZ/xErIyh/9zjF6vES9FgveKbuK5++wg2Ld/Z3KP9qMZlUs1PJ j6Sq/zAIppb9vbjM96ZvAJggcvRs8sd0LgTmB2LFYRPpTr1i9umE X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGlko6HlU32JVk1eaES7fZpdLvAGcb7NZD6keEZyCHw5L+mqzmH80wtfS6nqMfXjgW0BDViZA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:848c:b0:3f8:b73b:682d with SMTP id 5614622812f47-40341a72ce2mr52448b6e.32.1746122873265; Thu, 01 May 2025 11:07:53 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AVT/gBEi6n4NSV4dED9wcVNmTbS7cdsdarZVJgJvSqyP5ld/qQ== Received: by 2002:a4a:b304:0:b0:604:8bd0:c016 with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-607def3c95els320313eaf.2.-pod-prod-01-us; Thu, 01 May 2025 11:07:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:2f10:b0:3f3:e01e:f7eb with SMTP id 5614622812f47-403419acb0bmr82802b6e.7.1746122870183; Thu, 01 May 2025 11:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:aca:1c0d:0:b0:401:f361:f2fb with SMTP id 5614622812f47-40335dd7f55msb6e; Thu, 1 May 2025 10:38:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:2ec5:b0:224:fa0:36d2 with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-22e0842effamr48881215ad.26.1746121126695; Thu, 01 May 2025 10:38:46 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1746121126; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=JqTa5qn5PBAAV9qXrc8Gqf0XkbXmirpx9sJlO56D2BcXwsp4alWARrBn6avN92ooXU Ip7xMvAK3EXJz58n18skyRbwR7v7K533Jup661LM3RQ0uUG6kevg8nwa7R5M0SJMlSNB w9sWUDIsuIYXzQIzDr/7frnPtGnLHl2eAWizOyw8EPWILxNTiiwPTsqA/2VG+idS0eAp xxXdfT/2P67Z+B6FmZ2HMPJbkOUAvnH0eB/O15CTjOM1fbsrFrzhX9C9j1TCBqBFnlYi EbUas+WYjQn95g6SEjo1JzIzD5luJ2n3ZO8owXYuFHdpSYn8Nh6jaPQT6YiwhOAEDKFc SDXA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:dkim-signature; bh=KddtXVReAkcJEeh8qOKuIT8QpEgKE+81BYVFywCpfX4=; fh=vwK/tZt5NP0eeFP8Coyy2yZmOg14wU4Tqa0a14tCAu0=; b=DA6rbjEyIiSy14wf8s8Ad8Xt/YS7v2X6gBnWlqSNZQ2EqhCIjoHr0Z7QFY41ceKvYn twt9pf6XZaOzpVjBrL5hADYO/tHL1r5blNIPEHmAX1e/k0f9RgmfqVHswO92F0a9NC57 B2z4ACvNZ06boiKXHO+j1rs1JIQad7fjcB4LpEucB/r54vsyQt4Efsh74fJlOBb6oHr2 LHwyzUCd7D3YqyiwHpErZWy2xrlhnLZeOHbO/0giEW1+cngwfrDJwSyAOh3zJ/38esPu Q1HI38GA5OEVjoPRDhrBmEDX6tJGzs6YOGDZVStYR08theA/D++LlNfSD+rzGxJF+90v UM6w==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=NOo86snf; spf=pass (google.com: domain of bnagaev@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bnagaev@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Received: from mail-pg1-x52b.google.com (mail-pg1-x52b.google.com. [2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d9443c01a7336-22e0bb0470dsi562755ad.1.2025.05.01.10.38.46 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 01 May 2025 10:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of bnagaev@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b; Received: by mail-pg1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-b0b2d1f2845so912800a12.3 for ; Thu, 01 May 2025 10:38:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncthYbYQ6n4uWFh3b4xQBM+rAMZ21F9xMHbop7Su6Q1BNEjWDBcw/KwueGpZVWS ZVvWZf/Y6qFt6X5+7AlZBrBsOYB4nphtyJ8Tc/FtNcRuD1jFO/vdEIqRXsidC+5H6TuSrKqzDAX iQNLQSChHJKQ9Mo0G4JtpJWw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:2541:b0:305:5f55:899 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-30a4e5a579cmr20768a91.11.1746121126165; Thu, 01 May 2025 10:38:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Nagaev Boris Date: Thu, 1 May 2025 14:38:08 -0300 X-Gm-Features: ATxdqUFibOtTdDo91inUb5aEku0YV4wQaMGurLZ2uy4F4ByZN1a_4qw_DskYXiM Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Introducing Hourglass To: Michael Tidwell Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Original-Sender: bnagaev@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=NOo86snf; spf=pass (google.com: domain of bnagaev@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bnagaev@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On Wed, Apr 30, 2025 at 12:26=E2=80=AFAM Michael Tidwell wrote: > - 2. Single Entity rush spends: > A single entity generates QC signatures and tries to rapidly flip the UTX= Os while having their first mover competitive edge. They either broadcast t= o the mempool, partner with miners, or mine directly. This creates potentia= l miner collusion if P2PK fees remain low, pressuring the QC entity to rais= e fees and incentivize miners before their competitive advantage expires an= d others catch up. > [...] > > - 4. Patient Miner: > A single QC capable entity, also operating as a miner or partners with a = miner, chooses to be patient, including P2PK transactions only in their own= blocks to maximize long-term profits. IMHO for a single QC capable entity even if it mines itself or partners with a miner, it would make sense to broadcast the transaction publicly. If it doesn't broadcast, then it can only capture one UTXO when it mines a block - rarely, depending on their hashrate share. If it mines itself and broadcasts at the same time, there is a possibility that another miner includes the transaction into a block. So a rational QC capable entity would broadcast in addition to mine themselves. Also it would make sense to use different UTXOs for broadcasting and for self mining: if another miner mines one UTXO, the QC entity can continue mining another UTXO trying to mine the next block with it. If they use the same UTXO, they would have to quickly make a signature for a fresh UTXO for their own block. Or just have a pool of attacked UTXOs and take them one by one... --=20 Best regards, Boris Nagaev --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAFC_Vt6c_DwmpCzNVCRWzz9E2AGn0PpkZzLeYeGNE1tYbUzyOA%40mail.gmail.com.