From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83462C0037 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 2023 01:17:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 515DE8143C for ; Sat, 30 Dec 2023 01:17:40 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 515DE8143C Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 header.b=iE9HVZxa X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xje0SnODZtGp for ; Sat, 30 Dec 2023 01:17:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-il1-x132.google.com (mail-il1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::132]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9986C80EA7 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 2023 01:17:39 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 9986C80EA7 Received: by mail-il1-x132.google.com with SMTP id e9e14a558f8ab-35fd9e40039so37469985ab.1 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2023 17:17:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1703899058; x=1704503858; darn=lists.linuxfoundation.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=mkOMMEbXD3Dd0lrhRMuOKCcT0Zh0BLX63i2agMByE8g=; b=iE9HVZxa0v6dQe+uYDCthh9fLL0FTESOUIJWPTtkCkLo+0WyPA0PH7dflKpv/7mhNk 8m/HMleGlRncnTwYq2H8hEWpWm+9P+6AEwN7ph058ZuQIGGnciZp/QGYyPce3K9OoVBN CogDLpjUp45M1/BZVVS7RuemhjzFmysaIotoCWaLFuiP5DSeo3f1zzQOGxcjW8VLR1ke ymG9LVwLfGKqaVekQrJuKh97SzY+SbIGJAkaq113cxf130hUlGwMzDNakAIdA3tTBOOv tO2m9tHR2cp5J4ZJiadtLAFBbJrl+wxkllECmsdFdwdOFauKeivuQiXKQQOGk+cMkfoM +6Eg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1703899058; x=1704503858; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=mkOMMEbXD3Dd0lrhRMuOKCcT0Zh0BLX63i2agMByE8g=; b=h0n7y8htzDffq7hepR2MAEsI6gZ6Hl6fgWNJ2bZ1cPx2iyN+ZEHNdWpmqSOfEWVVfH VmKxsY0zpmiEU8cdXKywfLd3t8ZXDv/TjG0n94SrZ9yiOWud3SZgytO2Y2p1wLDjPhNy 8EOZ7/BBv1mUIcHqwbKNLL4Kj6MgzYvekUo1vrO8ugBc9fPJgzBtPLr37dOysvOtXvaB cA45aOHUvMwbDVhkG1diyt3KCZdtHO5sq/R9Q449AWwphIDpDx6oycN3JaaOHqbIHDBU VAXmqA+NoXfe2EnSFviy5SioF6MqipzrzlZDgguqmrVWe+R8lnPs1SDCkuFTS8uIhBAq zxYA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyWtkzsijMB3VlhxSJgKvPgAvvg1LhQdPeLBUQNAJWM7/izvVci kDh18uria6wgtDGX53nZBJbxSAtxVwTAqgxD+TtPUv9bWBdgdg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHDSbJwj1QA6t+2WQgHh/CeYh8AKjMMaHPiEEL0Sl75Vnf03XUbehz9tH6qrK0FHIJ4f0ps1I6TBzMq0XipttQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1546:b0:360:fed:85eb with SMTP id j6-20020a056e02154600b003600fed85ebmr10204223ilu.56.1703899058648; Fri, 29 Dec 2023 17:17:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8656E5B3-EDC7-4C00-93AB-C61AC6C22563@voskuil.org> <786297315b27fdecc1a21cc40ef4b993@dtrt.org> In-Reply-To: <786297315b27fdecc1a21cc40ef4b993@dtrt.org> From: Nagaev Boris Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 22:17:01 -0300 Message-ID: To: "David A. Harding" , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 15:58:26 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Lightning Safely With Feerate-Dependent Timelocks X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 01:17:40 -0000 Hey David! On Fri, Dec 29, 2023 at 9:37=E2=80=AFPM David A. Harding via bitcoin-dev wrote: > We can't prevent people from paying out of band, but we can ensure that > the easiest and most effective way to pay for a transaction is through > in-band fees and transactions that are relayed to every miner who is > interested in them. If we fail at that, I think Bitcoin losing its > censorship resistance will be inevitable. LN, coinpools, and channel > factories all strongly depend on Bitcoin transactions not being > censored, so I don't think any security is lost by redesigning them to > additionally depend on reasonably accurate in-band fee statistics. Feerate-Dependent Timelocks do create incentives to accept out-of-band fees to decrease in-band fees and speed up mining of transactions using FDT! Miners can make a 5% discount on fees paid out-of-band and many people will use it. Observed fees decrease and FDT transactions mature faster. It is beneficial for both parties involved: senders of transactions save 5% on fees, miners get FDT transactions mined faster and get more profits (for the sake of example more than 5%). --=20 Best regards, Boris Nagaev