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boundary="000000000000027b4605e169c093" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 14 Jun 2022 15:19:35 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Why OpenTimestamps does not "linearize" its transactions X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2022 15:06:36 -0000 --000000000000027b4605e169c093 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" If someone wants more linearity and uniqueness guarantees from a timestamp, that isnt what OTS was designed for. Here is a protocol that was: https://www.commerceblock.com/mainstay/ On Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:56 PM Bryan Bishop via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > On Tue, Jun 14, 2022 at 8:48 AM Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of > Many via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > >> OTS needlessly adds the requirement that the user publicize their .ots >> files to everybody who will make use of the timestamp. > > > Publication is not a component of the OTS system. > > This does not provide the service you describe. It would be trivial to >> include enough cryptographic information in the original OP_RETURN, so >> as to obviate the need for publicizing the .ots file. >> > > (Why would it be needless to require everyone to publish OTS files but not > needless to require everyone to publish via OP_RETURN? In fact, now you > have blockchain users that don't ever use your OP_RETURN data.) > > >> If I send my .ots file to another party, a 4th party can replace it >> with their own, because there is no cryptographic pinning ensuring its >> contents. This changes the timestamp to one later, no longer proving >> the earliness of the data. >> > > You can't replace a timestamp in the OTS system; you can only make a new > timestamp. To use the earlier timestamp, you would have to use the earlier > timestamp. At any time it is allowed to make a new timestamp based on the > current clock. The use case for OTS is proving document existence as of a > certain time and that if you had doctored a file then said doctoring was no > later than the earliest timestamp that can be provided. > > I was just talking about this the other day actually... > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31640752 > > - Bryan > https://twitter.com/kanzure > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --000000000000027b4605e169c093 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto">If someone wants more linearity and uniqueness guarantees= from a timestamp, that isnt what OTS was designed for. Here is a protocol = that was:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.commerceblock.com/mainstay/">https://= www.commerceblock.com/mainstay/</a></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di= v dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:56 PM Bryan Bish= op via bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.= org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockqu= ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s= olid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Jun 14, 20= 22 at 8:48 AM Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of Many via bitcoin-de= v <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_b= lank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrot= e:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st= yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd= ing-left:1ex"> OTS needlessly adds the requirement that the user publicize their .ots<br> files to everybody who will make use of the timestamp.</blockquote><div>=C2= =A0</div><div>Publication is not a component of the OTS system.</div><div><= br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e= x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> This does not provide the service you describe. It would be trivial to<br> include enough cryptographic information in the original OP_RETURN, so<br> as to obviate the need for publicizing the .ots file.<br></blockquote><div>= <br>(Why would it be needless to require everyone to publish OTS files but = not needless to require everyone to publish via OP_RETURN? In fact, now you= have blockchain users that don't ever use your OP_RETURN data.)<br>=C2= =A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e= x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">If I send my .ot= s file to another party, a 4th party can replace it<br> with their own, because there is no cryptographic pinning ensuring its<br> contents. This changes the timestamp to one later, no longer proving<br> the earliness of the data.<br></blockquote><div><br>You can't replace a= timestamp in the OTS system; you can only make a new timestamp. To use the= earlier timestamp, you would have to use the earlier timestamp. At any tim= e it is allowed to make a new timestamp based on the current clock. The use= case for OTS is proving document existence as of a certain time and that i= f you had doctored a file then said doctoring was no later than the earlies= t timestamp that can be provided.<br><br>I was just talking about this the = other day actually...<br><a href=3D"https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D= 31640752" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://news.ycombinator.com= /item?id=3D31640752</a><br><br></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr= ">- Bryan<br><a href=3D"https://twitter.com/kanzure" target=3D"_blank" rel= =3D"noreferrer">https://twitter.com/kanzure</a></div></div></div> _______________________________________________<br> bitcoin-dev mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" = rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br> <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" = rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundati= on.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br> </blockquote></div> --000000000000027b4605e169c093--