From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10A0B8A6 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 2015 17:47:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-oi0-f45.google.com (mail-oi0-f45.google.com [209.85.218.45]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 416C4A8 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 2015 17:47:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: by oio137 with SMTP id 137so56780800oio.0 for ; Fri, 07 Aug 2015 10:47:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=LgdhZcyJwTTi16cPbCDBOgH6cLce6reMPevHRazhZFg=; b=LL6eoAM2UZeGfEDaFv1SbGYrmNnP0CamC2k7mi55aRSKles+J7/veR1xbFLhtJIz55 eVg8huFRaeVFmV0Ch5o9MsurRJkR9e+FnNoPsocGoIT4FLb84UTdVVAnsxFUxuB+51el k/HdYlHjV1maKy+2kjklPf9dGM7n8EtSKZKQTBC2BK+KxWrxP+rihboGoLT1tLimyG0R K4EjBzbgkHDtt5fs+njdybUNw48OPCQZr6N3YuIDJ/KkDgmQMplaBNlR3PGu9UWyUXgp N54oQ8CXbvDJf58JN7okObdeIQJj/McqDQWTb4/xTRJW6TwTBPSCm5OVpdr3gqanmA1V C9yg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.96.8 with SMTP id u8mr7665551oib.77.1438969642661; Fri, 07 Aug 2015 10:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.220.6 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Aug 2015 10:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.220.6 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Aug 2015 10:47:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 12:47:22 -0500 Message-ID: From: Ryan Butler To: Pieter Wuille Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d5b8864be38051cbc3a69 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Fees and the block-finding process X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 17:47:24 -0000 --001a113d5b8864be38051cbc3a69 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Interesting position there Peter...you fear more people actually using bitcoin. The less on chain transactions the lower the velocity and the lower the value of the network. I would be careful what you ask for because you end up having nothing left to even root the security of these off chain transactions with and then neither will exist. Nobody ever said you wouldn't run out of capacity at any size. It's quite the fallacy to draw the conclusion from that statement that block size should remain far below a capacity it can easily maintain which would bring more users/velocity/value to the system. The outcomes of both of those scenarios are asymmetric. A higher block size can support more users and volume. Raising the blocksize isn't out of fear. It's the realization that we are at a point where we can raise it and support more users and transactions while keeping the downsides to a minimum (centralization etc). On Aug 7, 2015 11:28 AM, "Pieter Wuille via bitcoin-dev" < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Gavin Andresen > wrote: > >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Pieter Wuille >> wrote: >> >>> I guess my question (and perhaps that's what Jorge is after): do you >>> feel that blocks should be increased in response to (or for fear of) such a >>> scenario. >>> >> >> I think there are multiple reasons to raise the maximum block size, and >> yes, fear of Bad Things Happening as we run up against the 1MB limit is one >> of the reasons. >> >> I take the opinion of smart engineers who actually do resource planning >> and have seen what happens when networks run out of capacity very seriously. >> > > This is a fundamental disagreement then. I believe that the demand is > infinite if you don't set a fee minimum (and I don't think we should), and > it just takes time for the market to find a way to fill whatever is > available - the rest goes into off-chain systems anyway. You will run out > of capacity at any size, and acting out of fear of that reality does not > improve the system. Whatever size blocks are actually produced, I believe > the result will either be something people consider too small to be > competitive ("you mean Bitcoin can only do 24 transactions per second?" > sounds almost the same as "you mean Bitcoin can only do 3 transactions per > second?"), or something that is very centralized in practice, and likely > both. > > >> And if so, if that is a reason for increase now, won't it be a reason for >>> an increase later as well? It is my impression that your answer is yes, >>> that this is why you want to increase the block size quickly and >>> significantly, but correct me if I'm wrong. >>> >> >> Sure, it might be a reason for an increase later. Here's my message to >> in-the-future Bitcoin engineers: you should consider raising the maximum >> block size if needed and you think the benefits of doing so (like increased >> adoption or lower transaction fees or increased reliability) outweigh the >> costs (like higher operating costs for full-nodes or the disruption caused >> by ANY consensus rule change). >> > > In general that sounds reasonable, but it's a dangerous precedent to make > technical decisions based on a fear of change of economics... > > -- > Pieter > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > --001a113d5b8864be38051cbc3a69 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Interesting position there Peter...you fear more people actu= ally using bitcoin.=C2=A0 The less on chain transactions the lower the velo= city and the lower the value of the network.=C2=A0 I would be careful what = you ask for because you end up having nothing left to even root the securit= y of these off chain transactions with and then neither will exist.

Nobody ever said you wouldn't run out of capacity at any= size.=C2=A0 It's quite the fallacy to draw the conclusion from that st= atement that block size should remain far below a capacity it can easily ma= intain which would bring more users/velocity/value to the system.=C2=A0 The= outcomes of both of those scenarios are asymmetric.=C2=A0 A higher block s= ize can support more users and volume.

Raising the blocksize isn't out of fear.=C2=A0 It's = the realization that we are at a point where we can raise it and support mo= re users and transactions while keeping the downsides to a minimum (central= ization etc).

On Aug 7, 2015 11:28 AM, "Pieter Wuille via= bitcoin-dev" <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 = at 5:55 PM, Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com> w= rote:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com> wrote:
I guess my question (and perhaps that's what Jorge is after): = do you feel that blocks should be increased in response to (or for fear of)= such a scenario.

I think there are multiple reasons to raise the maximum block size, = and yes, fear of Bad Things Happening as we run up against the 1MB limit is= one of the reasons.

I take the opinion of smart e= ngineers who actually do resource planning and have seen what happens when = networks run out of capacity very seriously.

This is a fundamental disagreement then. I believ= e that the demand is infinite if you don't set a fee minimum (and I don= 't think we should), and it just takes time for the market to find a wa= y to fill whatever is available - the rest goes into off-chain systems anyw= ay. You will run out of capacity at any size, and acting out of fear of tha= t reality does not improve the system. Whatever size blocks are actually pr= oduced, I believe the result will either be something people consider too s= mall to be competitive ("you mean Bitcoin can only do 24 transactions = per second?" sounds almost the same as "you mean Bitcoin can only= do 3 transactions per second?"), or something that is very centralize= d in practice, and likely both.


And if so, if that is a r= eason for increase now, won't it be a reason for an increase later as w= ell? It is my impression that your answer is yes, that this is why you want= to increase the block size quickly and significantly, but correct me if I&= #39;m wrong.

Sure, it might be a reason for an increase later. Here's my messa= ge to in-the-future Bitcoin engineers: =C2=A0you should consider raising th= e maximum block size if needed and you think the benefits of doing so (like= increased adoption or lower transaction fees or increased reliability) out= weigh the costs (like higher operating costs for full-nodes or the disrupti= on caused by ANY consensus rule change).

In general that sounds reasonable, b= ut it's a dangerous precedent to make technical decisions based on a fe= ar of change of economics...

--
Pieter


_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.= linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

--001a113d5b8864be38051cbc3a69--