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From: Ryan Butler <rryananizer@gmail.com>
To: Gregory Maxwell <greg@xiph.org>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Capacity increases for the Bitcoin system.
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 00:36:22 -0600	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAF_2MyWd7a5_yJt8D1uY7V-QqWYCcigR0ubuJwoyxz=yAyMpVw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAAS2fgS-jjEVeHf_LErppTadtAaSeBum+KiGHpoo=Jz5BZArsQ@mail.gmail.com>

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I see, thanks for clearing that up, I misread what Gavin stated.

On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 12:29 AM, Gregory Maxwell <greg@xiph.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 4:44 AM, Ryan Butler <rryananizer@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>I agree, but nothing I have advocated creates significant technical
> >>debt. It is also a bad engineering practice to combine functional
> >>changes (especially ones with poorly understood system wide
> >>consequences and low user autonomy) with structural tidying.
> >
> > I don't think I would classify placing things in consensus critical code
> > when it doesn't need to be as "structural tidying".  Gavin said "pile on"
> > which you took as implying "a lot", he can correct me, but I believe he
> > meant "add to".
>
> Nothing being discussed would move something from consensus critical
> code to not consensus critical.
>
> What was being discussed was the location of the witness commitment;
> which is consensus critical regardless of where it is placed. Should
> it be placed in an available location which is compatible with the
> existing network, or should the block hashing data structure
> immediately be changed in an incompatible way to accommodate it in
> order to satisfy an ascetic sense of purity and to make fraud proofs
> somewhat smaller?
>
> I argue that the size difference in the fraud proofs is not
> interesting, the disruption to the network in an incompatible upgrade
> is interesting; and that if it really were desirable reorganization to
> move the commitment point could be done as part of a separate change
> that changes only the location of things (and/or other trivial
> adjustments); and that proceeding int this fashion would minimize
> disruption and risk... by making the incompatible changes that will
> force network wide software updates be as small and as simple as
> possible.
>
> >> (especially ones with poorly understood system wide consequences and low
> >> user autonomy)
> >
> > This implies there you have no confidence in the unit tests and
> functional
> > testing around Bitcoin and should not be a reason to avoid refactoring.
> > It's more a reason to increase testing so that you will have confidence
> when
> > you refactor.
>
> I am speaking from our engineering experience in a  public,
> world-wide, multi-vendor, multi-version, inter-operable, distributed
> system which is constantly changing and in production contains private
> code, unknown and assorted hardware, mixtures of versions, unreliable
> networks, undisclosed usage patterns, and more sources of complex
> behavior than can be counted-- including complex economic incentives
> and malicious participants.
>
> Even if we knew the complete spectrum of possible states for the
> system the combinatioric explosion makes complete testing infeasible.
>
> Though testing is essential one cannot "unit test" away all the risks
> related to deploying a new behavior in the network.
>

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  reply	other threads:[~2015-12-09  6:36 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 56+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2015-12-07 22:02 [bitcoin-dev] Capacity increases for the Bitcoin system Gregory Maxwell
2015-12-07 22:54 ` Bryan Bishop
2015-12-08  2:42 ` Anthony Towns
2015-12-08  4:58   ` Anthony Towns
2015-12-08  5:21     ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-12-08  6:54       ` Anthony Towns
2016-01-18 12:02     ` Anthony Towns
2016-01-22  9:46       ` Anthony Towns
2015-12-08 11:07 ` Wladimir J. van der Laan
2015-12-08 11:14   ` Jorge Timón
2015-12-08 15:12     ` Gavin Andresen
2015-12-08 15:55       ` Justus Ranvier
2015-12-08 17:41         ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-12-08 18:43           ` Justus Ranvier
2015-12-08 19:08           ` Tier Nolan
2015-12-08 19:31         ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-12-08 23:40         ` Jonathan Toomim
2015-12-08 23:48           ` Luke Dashjr
2015-12-09  0:54             ` Jonathan Toomim
2015-12-08 23:50           ` Jorge Timón
2015-12-09  0:56             ` Jonathan Toomim
2015-12-08 23:59       ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-12-09  0:58         ` Jorge Timón
2015-12-09  1:02           ` Jorge Timón
2015-12-09  1:09         ` Gavin Andresen
2015-12-09  1:31           ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-12-09  4:44             ` Ryan Butler
2015-12-09  6:29               ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-12-09  6:36                 ` Ryan Butler [this message]
2015-12-09  6:59                 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-12-09  7:17                   ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-12-09  7:54                 ` Jorge Timón
2015-12-09  8:03                   ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-12-09  8:46                     ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-12-09 11:08                     ` Jorge Timón
2015-12-09 16:40                     ` Gavin Andresen
2015-12-11 16:18                       ` Jorge Timón
2015-12-11 16:43                         ` Gavin Andresen
2015-12-12  5:13                           ` digitsu
2015-12-12 15:18                             ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-12-14 11:21                               ` Jonathan Toomim
2015-12-14 12:44                                 ` Adam Back
2015-12-09  4:51             ` Anthony Towns
2015-12-09 14:51       ` Chris
     [not found]   ` <CAPWm=eUomq6SBC0ky0WSs5=_G942vigm4RmgYuq0O-yJ-vqC2A@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]     ` <CAPg+sBig9O5+he0PWhTkX5iin14QLz5+eCCu6KfwU=DxntKYtg@mail.gmail.com>
2015-12-21  4:33       ` Pieter Wuille
2015-12-21  4:42         ` Justus Ranvier
2015-12-21  4:44         ` Alex Morcos
2015-12-21  4:50         ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-12-21  5:29           ` Douglas Roark
2015-12-21  5:21         ` Btc Drak
2015-12-21  8:07           ` Anthony Towns
2015-12-21  9:56             ` Jorge Timón
2015-12-08 23:48 ` Jonathan Toomim
2015-12-09  0:23   ` Gregory Maxwell
     [not found]   ` <CAAS2fgRP8bLWZoKR9-iJS-2RKTGQQ9NG-LpAfa2BOdcR=GuB_A@mail.gmail.com>
2015-12-09  0:40     ` Jonathan Toomim
2015-12-09 12:28 Daniele Pinna

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