From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ukggo-0006mh-9H for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 06 Jun 2013 20:21:42 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of antonopoulos.com designates 209.85.214.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.182; envelope-from=andreas@antonopoulos.com; helo=mail-ob0-f182.google.com; Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com ([209.85.214.182]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1Ukggm-0003vh-Hv for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 06 Jun 2013 20:21:42 +0000 Received: by mail-ob0-f182.google.com with SMTP id va7so5337542obc.27 for ; Thu, 06 Jun 2013 13:21:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :x-gm-message-state; bh=Uj6SuEL8YXGVdDMPBnvYfXKvDW0yiiDZhZQboSUGj5U=; b=QlvSWmxTWYGxeyc+rbBJ7APKwoH0XHQAXwUZ0t/ks98qhaqbvLOeidDwyqhcQhkU67 93ixY67od6YkZMxL5ZawQVqqpsUcwWPQme66cOepv9Luu/MEuqQS+LAZwaZpEjnJe+z2 7P5ykS29WZURwBRHEm8cl4/X7hO/nrm8rf7XDtEM5CDDHl9WTwLQZaQYDIJXpWr/Mev5 wp5y4YKUonnKOeLiZA7ykdqmwM6GnZcJCMXujYQ1DlUVQexRhtHtIpYlehmZHDrEOYi4 mY7Ykf3E5MwzsT/l2J0CbPLFZg/abhnqDVq+ZYmh2At/uBVF66mw3UN8TiJr079LBc8b fpaA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.135.134 with SMTP id ps6mr18824268oeb.114.1370548756144; Thu, 06 Jun 2013 12:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Sender: andreas@antonopoulos.com Received: by 10.182.17.9 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Jun 2013 12:59:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201306061914.20006.luke@dashjr.org> References: <201306061914.20006.luke@dashjr.org> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 12:59:16 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: GtwsQCzmAdunYQhrIvfsh9uFodg Message-ID: From: "Andreas M. Antonopoulos" To: Luke-Jr Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b33ce8cc1f8ef04de81bfd5 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmrRuZmcNw8nyVDi2yJESJ4xck6fEHcDEP0wF6l5QSv80u/meU6OncmtcFuZC1oGHbqpIAe X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Headers-End: 1Ukggm-0003vh-Hv Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: soft-fork to make anyone-can-spend outputs unspendable for 100 blocks X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2013 20:21:42 -0000 --047d7b33ce8cc1f8ef04de81bfd5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Is there any consideration given to the fact that bitcoin can operate as a platform for many other services, if it is able to be neutral to payload, as long as the fee is paid for the transaction size? Unless I have misunderstood this discussion, it seems to me that this is a bit like saying in 1990 "IP Is only for email, the majority of users want email, we shouldn't allow video, voice or images". Ooops, there goes the web. Is it possible to solve this by solving the issue of provably un-spendable outputs without foreclosing on the possibility of other types of transaction payloads (ie, not money), that would open the possibility for a myriad of layered apps above? For example, hashes of content that is external to bitcoin, that people want to pay to have timestamped in the blockchain, as provably unspendable outputs. The social compact is to accept transaction for fee. I think it is a major mistake to make decisions that discriminate on the content of the transaction, saying that some uses are not appropriate. If the fee is paid and it covers the size of the transaction, why would it matter if it is not a payment? I could be totally misreading this thread, too, so please allow me some slack if I have! On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Luke-Jr wrote: > On Saturday, June 01, 2013 7:30:36 PM Peter Todd wrote: > > scriptPubKey: OP_TRUE > > > > ... > > Along with that change anyone-can-spend outputs should be make > IsStandard() > > so they will be relayed. > > Data does not belong in the blockchain. People running nodes have all > implicitly agreed to store the blocks for financial purposes, and storing > data > is a violation of that social contract. Proof-of-stake may be arguably > financial, but I'm sure there must be a way to do it without spamming > people > against their consent. > > > The alternative is sacrifices to unspendable outputs, which is very > > undesirable compared to sending the money to miners to further > > strengthen the security of the network. > > The alternative is to make other standard outputs unable to store data as > well. > > Luke > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments: > 1. A cloud service to automate IT design, transition and operations > 2. Dashboards that offer high-level views of enterprise services > 3. A single system of record for all IT processes > http://p.sf.net/sfu/servicenow-d2d-j > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > --047d7b33ce8cc1f8ef04de81bfd5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is there any consideration given to the fact that bitcoin = can operate as a platform for many other services, if it is able to be neut= ral to payload, as long as the fee is paid for the transaction size?
Unless I have misunderstood this discussion, it seems to m= e that this is a bit like saying in 1990 "IP Is only for email, the ma= jority of users want email, we shouldn't allow video, voice or images&q= uot;. Ooops, there goes the web.=A0

Is it possible to solve this by solving the= issue of provably un-spendable outputs without foreclosing on the possibil= ity of other types of transaction payloads (ie, not money), that would open= the possibility for a myriad of layered apps above? For example, hashes of= content that is external to bitcoin, that people want to pay to have times= tamped in the blockchain, as provably unspendable outputs.

The social compact is to accept transaction= for fee. I think it is a major mistake to make decisions that discriminate= on the content of the transaction, saying that some uses are not appropria= te. If the fee is paid and it covers the size of the transaction, why would= it matter if it is not a payment?=A0

I could be totally misreading this thread, = too, so please allow me some slack if I have!




On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Luke-Jr <luke@dashjr.org> wro= te:
On Saturday, June 01, 2013 7:30:36 PM Peter Todd wrote: > scriptPubKey: <data> OP_TRUE
>
> ...
> Along with that change anyone-can-spend output= s should be make IsStandard()
> so they will be relayed.

Data does not belong in the blockchain. People runn= ing nodes have all
implicitly agreed to store the blocks for financial purposes, and storing d= ata
is a violation of that social contract. Proof-of-stake may be arguably
financial, but I'm sure there must be a way to do it without spamming p= eople
against their consent.

> The alternative is sacrifices to unspendable o= utputs, which is very
> undesirable compared to sending the money to miners to further
> strengthen the security of the network.

The alternative is to make other standard outputs unable to store dat= a as
well.

Luke

---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments:
1. A cloud service to automate IT design, transition and operations
2. Dashboards that offer high-level views of enterprise services
3. A single system of record for all IT processes
http://p= .sf.net/sfu/servicenow-d2d-j
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Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-develo= pment@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment

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