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[2a00:1450:4864:20::334]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q26-20020a2e915a000000b002d9f81840eesi264081ljg.7.2024.04.21.04.43.54 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 21 Apr 2024 04:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of michaelfolkson@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::334 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::334; Received: by mail-wm1-x334.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-4199332c1dcso12084145e9.3 for ; Sun, 21 Apr 2024 04:43:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:4ed1:b0:418:2ccf:cbc7 with SMTP id g17-20020a05600c4ed100b004182ccfcbc7mr4515096wmq.2.1713699833413; Sun, 21 Apr 2024 04:43:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2092f7ff-4860-47f8-ba1a-c9d97927551e@achow101.com> <77554baa9330c57361c65c1fc85557f1@dtrt.org> <7b4e2223-0b96-4ca0-a441-aebcfc7b0bben@googlegroups.com> <070755a0-10e9-4903-9524-dd8ef98c1c8b@achow101.com> <0d4d85e3-9fbb-4bd4-af0f-92225e699b63@achow101.com> <97a10141-8847-417a-af11-d95e7d3be064@achow101.com> In-Reply-To: <97a10141-8847-417a-af11-d95e7d3be064@achow101.com> From: Michael Folkson Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2024 12:43:41 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Adding New BIP Editors To: Ava Chow Cc: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Original-Sender: michaelfolkson@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=JHyMBQ5S; spf=pass (google.com: domain of michaelfolkson@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::334 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=michaelfolkson@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Ava Thanks for the detailed response, I appreciate the insight. >> I'm even more concerned about future soft fork activation attempts. >> These don't necessarily need to be attempted via a Bitcoin Core merged >> pull request hence the BIPs repo could be a key source of information >> and guidance on this. > This concern doesn't make any sense. There are already multiple soft and > hard fork BIPs that are not active nor good ideas. A BIP does not need > to be a good idea. I would hope that a contentious soft fork and activation params for that contentious soft fork would not be merged into the Bitcoin Core codebase and up until now it hasn't been. I would hope all the Bitcoin Core maintainers understand that even if they personally think a soft fork is a good idea (apparently there is nothing to stop them merging it without discussing it with the other maintainers) that they shouldn't independently merge it if it is contentious. Similarly I would hope that all BIP editors would be careful about what information gets merged around soft fork activation *attempts* whether that be activation details on a particular soft fork BIP or on a separate activation BIP. With Taproot there were very strong disagreements over activation parameters for a non-contentious soft fork. It would be much messier for a contentious soft fork activation attempt. I'm not sure all these new BIP editors understand that or would perhaps even agree with that. For example Laolu is listed as a supporter of a CTV activation attempt back in 2022 [0] which was clearly contentious. That doesn't inspire me with confidence that as soon as he is a BIP editor he won't start merging details on contentious soft fork activation attempts in BIPs and merging that soft fork in say btcd. He would need to be removed as a BIP editor if he were to do something like that. Thanks Michael [0]: https://utxos.org/signals/ On Sun, Apr 21, 2024 at 12:05=E2=80=AFAM Ava Chow wrot= e: > > > On 04/20/2024 06:21 PM, Michael Folkson wrote: > > It is inevitable there will be a "revert war" unless they all have to > > agree on merge decisions or communicate prior to merging. It is just a > > matter of time. Does for example Ordinal Numbers get a BIP number? I > > suspect all the new BIP editors won't agree on that. > > Why do you think that a revert war is inevitable? > > The Bitcoin Core repo operates in a similar way - the maintainers are > independent and work autonomously. The maintainers do not have to agree > on merge decisions nor do they communicate prior to merging. If there's > disagreement about a merge decision, we talk to each other about it like > adults and come to a mutually agreeable resolution. I don't think > there's ever been a revert war in the history of Bitcoin. > > I would expect that when there is something that is likely to be > controversial or is ambiguous that it should be a BIP that they would > then talk to each other about it. It doesn't have to be all or nothing - > they can do most work without communicating, but when there's questions > or ambiguity, then they communicate. > > > Who is to blame in a "revert war" if each editor is free to merge > > whatever pull request they like? The editor who merged it? Why should > > they be removed as an editor for merging a pull request when they find > > out later a different editor disagreed with that merge decision and > > wants to revert the merge? > > A revert war would be someone merging a PR that reverts another, then > someone else (opening then) merging a PR that reverts that, and it goes > back and forth. It would not be limited to PRs only. This would likely > be super obvious too that they are controversially merging things as I > would be surprised if other BIP editors didn't comment on any of those > actions, besides the fact that many people do also watch the BIPs repo. > Regardless, the blame is on those who are doing the reverting, and would > be both sides. > > > I'm even more concerned about future soft fork activation attempts. > > These don't necessarily need to be attempted via a Bitcoin Core merged > > pull request hence the BIPs repo could be a key source of information > > and guidance on this. > > This concern doesn't make any sense. There are already multiple soft and > hard fork BIPs that are not active nor good ideas. A BIP does not need > to be a good idea. > > > I've seen Wladimir is contributing again to Core. Is there a plan to > > give him commit access again? > > It would have to be through the typical maintainer process, although I > doubt that he even wants it. But that's completely orthogonal to the > BIPs repo discussion. > > > I'd be more comfortable with him > > overseeing things in the various repos under the Bitcoin Core > > (/bitcoin) GitHub org as it sounds like you don't really care if the > > BIPs repo degenerates into a free for all. > > I don't understand why you assume that. > > I've said this before, but if I see a revert war going on in the BIPs > repo, I will remove those involved immediately and make a thread on the > list to discuss what to do about them. But I doubt that's a scenario > that will actually come to pass. > > Ava > > > > > Thanks > > Michael > > > > On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 10:15=E2=80=AFPM 'Ava Chow' via Bitcoin Develop= ment > > Mailing List wrote: > >> > >> On 04/20/2024 04:46 PM, Steve Lee wrote: > >>> Wasn't there evidence provided that Kanzure does not want this > >>> responsibility without being paid? > >> > >> I am not aware of that, and it hasn't come up when I've talked to him > >> about being a BIPs editor. > >> > >>> I'm confused by this process that we don't even ask the people if the= y > >>> want the responsibility? I think only Laolu has chimed in to commit t= o it? > >> > >> Personally, I've spoken to all 5 privately and they've all confirmed t= o > >> me that they are willing to be BIPs editors. Jonatack[1] and Murch[2] > >> have also replied to this thread about this. > >> > >> Ava > >> > >> [1]: > >> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/83b69000-ca1e-4a58-90b5-114cb09ac0bbn= @googlegroups.com/ > >> [2]: > >> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/53a0015c-b76a-441a-920b-32bd88d5e778@= murch.one/ > >> > >>> > >>> On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 12:30=E2=80=AFPM 'Ava Chow' via Bitcoin Devel= opment > >>> Mailing List >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Since we're now past the deadline of April 19th, I'd like to inf= orm > >>> everyone of what will happen on Monday. > >>> > >>> There has not been any actual objections to the nominees nor hav= e there > >>> been any suggestions on choosing a subset of them since my last = email. > >>> As such, there is rough consensus on adding Kanzure, Murch, Jona= tack, > >>> Ruben, and Roasbeef as BIP editors, and they will be added on Mo= nday > >>> April 22nd. > >>> > >>> Ava > >>> > >>> On 04/16/2024 01:08 PM, 'Ava Chow' via Bitcoin Development Maili= ng List > >>> wrote: > >>> > While I don't disagree that 5 or 6 people seems like a lot to= add at > >>> > once, it's not clear to me how we should decide which subset = of the > >>> > nominees should be added. As it is now, I have only seen an a= ctual > >>> > objection to Kanzure and Ruben from /dev/fd0, and no explicit > >>> objections > >>> > to anyone else. It seems like the vast majority of people don= 't share > >>> > their concerns either as both Kanzure and Ruben continue to b= e > >>> endorsed > >>> > by many others. > >>> > > >>> > Looking at the endorsements each candidate has received, the = current > >>> > counts are: > >>> > * Kanzure - 17 for, 1 against > >>> > * Murch - 13 for > >>> > * Jonatack - 13 for > >>> > * Ruben - 12 for, 1 against > >>> > * Roasbeef - 9 for > >>> > * Michael Folkson - none > >>> > > >>> > However, I don't want this process to become a popularity con= test and > >>> > require some kind of formal voting. Rather I'd prefer that th= is > >>> process > >>> > be something more like how Bitcoin Core maintainers are added= - by > >>> > achieving rough consensus. Without any explicit objections to= any of > >>> > these candidates, I'm inclined to move forward with adding th= e 5 who > >>> > have received endorsements. Having to pick "winners" from thi= s list > >>> > seems like a quick way to stir up drama that I don't think an= yone > >>> really > >>> > wants to deal with. > >>> > > >>> > I do want to note that neither Kanzure, Ruben, nor Roasbeef h= ave > >>> posted > >>> > on this list that they are willing to be BIP editors. I have > >>> reached out > >>> > to all 3 of them privately, and received responses from Kanzu= re and > >>> > Ruben that indicate that they probably are willing, but publi= c > >>> > confirmation from them on this list would also be nice. I hav= e not > >>> > received a response from Roasbeef. > >>> > > >>> > Ava > >>> > > >>> > On 04/11/2024 10:22 AM, Sergi Delgado Segura wrote: > >>> >> > I would prefer having more (9+?) than less folks on this > >>> task, so > >>> >> personal preferences are easily ignored and overwritten by t= he group > >>> >> majority. > >>> >> > >>> >> I disagree with that, the more doesn't really the better her= e. > >>> Having > >>> >> too many editors may result in a tragedy of the commons, in > >>> which people > >>> >> just commit to the job because many others do, and they do n= ot > >>> end up > >>> >> doing as much because they expect others to do the it. This = does not > >>> >> only make the process look bad but may burnout the ones that= end up > >>> >> doing the job, given their time commitment ends up being too= far > >>> from > >>> >> their expectations. > >>> >> > >>> >> I think being more moderate with the amount of people is bet= ter, and > >>> >> gives us leeway in case the workload ends up being excessive= and > >>> we need > >>> >> to add more people (plus discourage people from joining and > >>> slacking off). > >>> >> > >>> >> I think 3 more people should be a good number to start from. > >>> >> I'd personally vouch for Murch, Kanzure, and Ruben based on > >>> their track > >>> >> record in the space > >>> >> > >>> >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2024 at 4:30=E2=80=AFPM nvk >>> > >>> >> >> wrote= : > >>> >> > >>> >> +1 for > >>> >> Kanzure > >>> >> RubenSomsen > >>> >> Seccour > >>> >> Jon Atack > >>> >> Roasbeef > >>> >> > >>> >> I would prefer having more (9+?) than less folks on this tas= k, so > >>> >> personal preferences are easily ignored and overwritten by t= he group > >>> >> majority. > >>> >> > >>> >> BIPs were intended as a means to collect ideas, not enforce = ideas. > >>> >> > >>> >> I'd like to return to that. > >>> >> > >>> >> - NVK (temp gmail account) > >>> >> > >>> >> On Monday, April 1, 2024 at 5:16:54=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4 Da= vid A. > >>> Harding wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> On 2024-03-28 10:04, Matt Corallo wrote: > >>> >> > Please provide justification rather than simply > >>> saying "I > >>> >> like Bob!". > >>> >> > >>> >> Using only comments from the mailing list, the > >>> following appears > >>> >> to be > >>> >> the candidate list along with the current support. > >>> Asterisks denote > >>> >> candidates who indicated their willingness to accep= t > >>> the role. > >>> >> > >>> >> - Bryan "Kanzure" Bishop, recommended by Ava Chow[1= ], Chris > >>> >> Stewart[3], > >>> >> Michael Folkson[6], Peter Todd[9], Matt Corallo[10]= , > >>> Brandon > >>> >> Black[11], > >>> >> Antoine Riard[12], Murch[13], Antoine Poinsot[15], = John > >>> >> Carvalho[16] > >>> >> > >>> >> - Ruben Somsen, recommended by Ava Chow[1], Chris > >>> Stewart[3], > >>> >> Michael > >>> >> Folkson[6], Antoine Riard[12], Murch[13], Antoine > >>> Poinsot[15], John > >>> >> Carvalho[16] > >>> >> > >>> >> - Jon Atack*, recommended by Luke Dashjr[2], Chris > >>> Stewart[3], > >>> >> /dev/fd0[5][7], > >>> >> Brandon Black[11], Antoine Riard[12], Ava Chow[14],= John > >>> >> Carvalho[16] > >>> >> > >>> >> - Olaoluwa "Roasbeef" Osuntokun, recommended by Chr= is > >>> >> Stewart[3], John > >>> >> C. Vernaleo[4], /dev/fd0[5][7], Keagan McClelland[8= ], > >>> Antoine > >>> >> Riard[12], Ava Chow[14] > >>> >> > >>> >> - Mark "Murch" Erhardt*, recommended by Michael > >>> Folkson[6], Keagan > >>> >> McClelland[8], Matt Corallo[10], Brandon Black[11],= Antoine > >>> >> Riard[12], > >>> >> Ava Chow[14] > >>> >> > >>> >> - Michael Folkson* > >>> >> > >>> >> Note: Luke Dashjr proposed[17] Seccour and Greg Ton= oski for > >>> >> "non-dev > >>> >> triaging", Tonoski proposed himself[18] for "BIP > >>> editor", and > >>> >> Antoine > >>> >> Riard[12] proposed Seccour for "decentralized PM". > >>> >> > >>> >> I searched the BIPs repo by commenter to see if any= of > >>> the above > >>> >> candidates had been especially active there, which = is > >>> listed > >>> >> below as: > >>> >> total PRs they commented on (number still open/numb= er > >>> closed). > >>> >> > >>> >> - 21 (1/20) commenter:kanzure > >>> >> - 3 (2/1) commenter:rubensomsen > >>> >> - 15 (0/15) commenter:jonatack > >>> >> - 18 (2/16) commenter:roasbeef > >>> >> - 10 (6/4) commenter:Murchandamus > >>> >> - 57 (6/51) commenter:michaelfolkson > >>> >> > >>> >> I'll also note that Osuntokun is the only member of= the > >>> set to > >>> >> have a > >>> >> merged BIP that they co-authored, although I believ= e > >>> there are > >>> >> far-along > >>> >> draft BIPs for both Murch (terminology) and Somsen = (Silent > >>> >> Payments). I > >>> >> don't think this should be a requirement, but I do = think it > >>> >> demonstrates > >>> >> familiarity with the process. > >>> >> > >>> >> Speaking only for myself, I think all of the candid= ates > >>> above with > >>> >> multiple recommendations from other community > >>> participants are > >>> >> fully > >>> >> qualified for the role, so I'll only provide a deta= iled > >>> >> justification > >>> >> for the person who would be my first pick: Murch is= not > >>> only a > >>> >> longstanding and broadly liked Bitcoin contributor,= but > >>> (as Corallo > >>> >> mentioned) he has worked on standardizing terminolo= gy > >>> through a > >>> >> draft > >>> >> BIP. In addition, he provided an extremely detailed > >>> review of > >>> >> all 300 > >>> >> pages of a draft of Mastering Bitcoin (3rd edition)= and has > >>> >> reviewed > >>> >> drafts of over 200 weekly Optech newsletters, in bo= th cases > >>> >> significantly improving the accuracy and > >>> comprehensibility of the > >>> >> documentation. To me, that seems very similar to th= e > >>> work we'd > >>> >> ask him > >>> >> to perform as a BIPs editor and it's something that > >>> he's already > >>> >> doing, > >>> >> so I think there's an excellent fit of person to ro= le. > >>> >> > >>> >> -Dave > >>> >> > >>> >> [1] > >>> >> > >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/2092f7ff-4860-47f8...@achow101.= com/ > >>> > > >>> >> [2] > >>> >> > >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/9288df7b-f2e9-4106...@dashjr.or= g/ > >>> > >>> > > >>> >> [3] > >>> >> > >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/d1e7183c-30e6-4f1a...@googlegro= ups.com/ > > >>> >> [4] > >>> >> > >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/84309c3f-e848-d333...@netpurgat= ory.com/ > > >>> >> [5] > >>> >> > >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/4c1462b7-ea1c-4a36...@googlegro= ups.com/ > > >>> >> [6] > >>> >> > >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/a116fba3-5948-48d2...@googlegro= ups.com/ > > >>> >> [7] > >>> >> > >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/846b668f-8386-4869...@googlegro= ups.com/ > > >>> >> [8] > >>> >> > >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALeFGL1-LKPWd7YRS110ut8tX=3Dwr= uqgLEazRA5...@mail.gmail.com/ > > >>> >> [9] > >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgePPvbf...@petertodd.org/ > >>> > >>> >> > >>> >>> > > >>> >> [10] > >>> >> > >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/f9435999-42df-46b5...@mattcoral= lo.com/ > > >>> >> [11] > >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgWRu32FXzqqg69V@console/ > >>> > >>> >> > >>> >>> > > >>> >> [12] > >>> >> > >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALZpt+E8DohYEJ9aO+FiF6+E...@ma= il.gmail.com/ > > >>> >> [13] > >>> >> > >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/53a0015c-b76a-441a...@murch.one= / > >>> > >>> > > >>> >> [14] > >>> >> > >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ae482890-bce3-468f...@achow101.= com/ > >>> > > >>> >> [15] > >>> >> > >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ppBS1tfMU3SFX85kmIBVBd0WpT5Wof_= oSBXsuizh7692AUDw2TojfvCqvcvlmsy9E69qfWMxK-UZWawf8IDApPqF7bXOH4gwU1c2jS4xoj= o=3D@protonmail.com/ > > >>> >> [16] > >>> >> > >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ad284018-e99c-4552...@googlegro= ups.com/ > > >>> >> [17] > >>> >> > >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAMHHROw9mZJRnTbUo76PdqwJU=3D= =3DYJMvd9Qrst+...@mail.gmail.com/ > > >>> >> > >>> >> -- > >>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to= the > >>> Google > >>> >> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > >>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving email= s > >>> from it, > >>> >> send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.co= m > >>> > >>> >> >>> >. > >>> >> To view this discussion on the web visit > >>> >> > >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7b4e2223-0b96-4ca0-= a441-aebcfc7b0bben%40googlegroups.com >. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> -- > >>> >> Sergi. > >>> >> > >>> >> -- > >>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the = Google > >>> >> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > >>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails fro= m > >>> it, send > >>> >> an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > >>> > >>> >> >>> >. > >>> >> To view this discussion on the web visit > >>> >> > >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAEYHFxV_8_Jw61tysL= _cV_xiXBcRyA3e%3DCGHGuSCgm%2B-4WxT9w%40mail.gmail.com >. > >>> > > >>> > -- > >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > >>> Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > >>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from= it, > >>> send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > >>> . > >>> > To view this discussion on the web visit > >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/fb52ccb5-9942-4db8-= b880-3c06ebc47cd1%40achow101.com . > >>> > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goog= le > >>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it= , > >>> send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > >>> . > >>> To view this discussion on the web visit > >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/070755a0-10e9-4903-= 9524-dd8ef98c1c8b%40achow101.com . > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/m= sgid/bitcoindev/0d4d85e3-9fbb-4bd4-af0f-92225e699b63%40achow101.com. > > > > > > > > -- > > Michael Folkson > > Personal email: michaelfolkson@gmail.com > --=20 Michael Folkson Personal email: michaelfolkson@gmail.com --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. 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