From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D076C000A for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 11:19:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E83F040148 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 11:19:15 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bbCLt7mMIpKa for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 11:19:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-ot1-x32c.google.com (mail-ot1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0BAC400AB for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 11:19:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ot1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id f75-20020a9d03d10000b0290280def9ab76so224061otf.12 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2021 04:19:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cJ5zyZ+YkRiT2KfmCkpzXBHIqSQ0MHB/h+kmoGJDx8Q=; b=Q7vuegU9gsaIeSQPyURO+BLIh+josxlI0/WJqkurpsqNnE2gbWcZpoy8gvBdBo8j6z VGTC1QldWEOy+5ebqUgKzPkqdyKgThz4wOAFMKx6wmYk916kE+Cl6YsnzhdkN5YvmAZB 5+i3LfUqYmu6y5ZmfgQT0mSPpH9w6o25r+jn0p4yJZaolSoneLWLzG2Jg11R+2c1LWfP cn8m6oStgb9xNwqIwaZbCPoRwSDW13tof1Ng/xOFETTXUgGcYaikdhiSWgtaGRsfc89b duKynx7Wo95XJL66DhmZKIvwLcPqxJ3F3GjsgNiUm8sj/DDUHvZaBktyDwKFd4yPYAut f7+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cJ5zyZ+YkRiT2KfmCkpzXBHIqSQ0MHB/h+kmoGJDx8Q=; b=EIvNMPQWQa9H3+X36zwjbao6QQwtzsM98DrFMrM2hJVVMMXzwwpPttAS4Ql6kOIO7Z N5bFfWNFO3q8kIbuwsHZYt8CDrlt52aHrpZ24S/OnMOqn83awT/1iKBlic60A5DFXF9L i+DLj1SWNAJtlLn6WyEBCmu9Cudtz6DNIoYGm12BRVJg4SISNCaKY5UHuGpxtHSJT9jM pgC02tOzI2eofzU92o3ulTqvgwEREvbGyWjQrzqVltJM9HqiA23fcNSkVpcZJvJDTl1t URjwbB/sJuek1UJlmxoPZofeAb95XhsEPdYEQNxAaqVPw9kRJ62ZB3zen9soPxgZBI3v g+aw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530FXguFYhdwdp7ryicZBqEN2OGAfcsCtv9S0THgMmUCaWbFC3Vx 1CJ5BX08EjNszxmD3nNG/yhhk/a8+tlesYPadRvMbpktNEE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwbiCUvEKQkoWapHX2jRTDB6mE1LSfPfczSYsJnWbOgdJxJVs1F35xjJZ+xda8YMZlJdZfODOYWxZr8SmX4JVM= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:4d0d:: with SMTP id n13mr4495791otf.294.1617967153664; Fri, 09 Apr 2021 04:19:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210408215605.5qdcpwkay6cxyyvr@ganymede> In-Reply-To: <20210408215605.5qdcpwkay6cxyyvr@ganymede> From: Michael Folkson Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:19:02 +0100 Message-ID: To: "David A. Harding" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 11:21:05 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Update on "Speedy" Trial: The circus rolls on X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 11:19:16 -0000 I have no problem with coin tosses to decide for example shed colors (an illustrative example discussed by copumpkin, roasbeef on IRC). In this kind of example everyone should recognize it doesn't matter and Approach ACK two competing PRs. No one should be NACKing or Approach NACKing a PR based on shed color. If the maintainers don't care about the shed color either then they are free to use a coin toss to decide which PR to merge. In this example there shouldn't be any NACKs, Approach NACKs or technical opposition from regular Core reviewers. NACKs are not meant to be used for shed colors. However, in this example the organizer of the coin toss had previously NACKed one of the options (block height, though his position seems to change by the day) and others have NACKed MTP. I think you have consistently said it doesn't matter too much although you did previously express a preference for block height. I don't want to belabor the point but can we avoid even suggesting using coin tosses on consensus code decisions in future please? It makes a mockery of those who spent time understanding the technical considerations and have spent months or years working on soft fork activations. Even in the shed color example, leave it to the maintainers to decide whether a coin toss is appropriate rather than creating a circus around a coin toss in a public meeting where the PR authors weren't present and no Core maintainers were present. I understand the frustration and I understand the desire to break deadlocks. But if the coin toss organizer hadn't previously NACKed one of the options (block height) we may have avoided getting into this deadlock in the first place. Your recent review notes of PR #21377 look great and are proving very helpful to me as I look at the PR. https://gist.github.com/harding/e622323eaf80d620826a7cb74ab3fb40 Thanks Michael On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 10:57 PM David A. Harding wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 08, 2021 at 12:40:42PM +0100, Michael Folkson via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > So the latest circus act is apparently a technical decision made by a > > coin toss [organized by] Jeremy Rubin > > Actually, the coin toss was my idea[1], used a bash oneliner I wrote[2], > and is the same method I've been using in Bitcoin-related discussions > for over seven years[3] to help people transition from ancillary arguments > back to working on the things they really think are important. > > I proposed the coin toss because I understood that both the MTP and the > height approaches required tradeoffs that were, to a certain degree, > unresolvable to the best of our current knowledge. MTP is harder to > analyze for unexpected edge cases; heights would create extra work for > seasoned developers working on post-taproot soft forks. MTP would > require developers of currently-planned UASF software either do extra > work or wait to release their software; heights don't guarantee a > minimum amount of time for a large number of economic full nodes to > upgrade. > > Different people gave different weights to the different tradeoffs. In > cases like this where there's no known way to eliminate the tradeoffs > and no way to objectively rank them, I think it's better to begin > working on something concrete than it is to try to persuade everyone to > adopt the same subjective ranking of the tradeoffs---or, as the IETF > published in RFC7282: > > "There are times where the result of [an informal open-ended > conversation] is a pretty even split. In practical terms, that > means it doesn't matter where the chair starts the discussion. And > in fact, we've had working groups where a coin flip decided which > proposal to start with. That doesn't mean that the coin flip > determined the outcome; if a fatal technical flaw was found in the > solution that won the coin flip, it is still incumbent upon the > group to address the issue raised or abandon that solution and find > another. Rough consensus on the technical points, in the end, is > always required. Any way to find a place to start, be it the hum or > the coin flip, is only getting to the beginning of the discussion, > not the end." > > As Jeremy wrote, in this occassion, we didn't actually need the coin > toss. The authors of the two PRs we were considering found a compromise > solution that seems to be good enough for both of them and which so far > seems to be good enough for the handful of people who agreed to the coin > toss (plus, it seems, several others who didn't agree to the toss). > > In short, I think the coin toss was a good attempt. Although we didn't > use its results this time, I think it's something we should keep in our > toolkit for the future when a group of people want to coordinate their > work on getting *a* solution released, even in cases where they don't > necessarily start out in agreement about which solution is best. > > > I dread to think what individuals and businesses all over the world > > who have plans to utilize and build on Taproot are making of all of > > this. > > Geeks arguing over minutia is a well established stereotype. That we've > conformed to that stereotype in this case is not great---but I don't > think it does us any significant reputational harm. I hope those > individuals and businesses awaiting taproot are discerning enough to > realize that the method we use to activate taproot has nothing to do > with taproot itself. I hope they realize that it remains the case that > there is nearly universal support for taproot from every entity that has > so far commented on it. > > Hopefully we've made progress on Speedy Trial this week, that progress > will continue and we'll be able to release activation-ready software > soon, miners will be willing to signal for taproot, and we'll soon be > able to end this chapter in Bitcoin's storied history of soft fork > activations.[4] (But I look forward to continued discussion about > better activation mechanisms for the future---if taproot locks in > quickly, I'd love to see human consensus form around a follow-up > deployment even before taproot reaches activation.) > > Respectfully, > > -Dave > > [1] http://gnusha.org/taproot-activation/2021-04-04.log " [...] > If that's not our goal and we just want to give miners a chance to > activate taproot as soon as possible (which was certainly my original > objective in supporting ST), I'm personally happy with either MTP or > heights, and I'd be willing to join others in putting my effort behind > just one of them based on fair random chance." > > [2] http://gnusha.org/taproot-activation/2021-04-04.log "18:09 < > harding> e.g.: bitcoin-cli getblockhash 123456 | cut -b64 | grep -q > '[02468ace]' && echo MTP || echo height" > > [3] E.g., > https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/Bitcoin.org/pull/589#discussion_r18314009 > and https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/Bitcoin.org/pull/566#issuecomment-56281595 > > [4] https://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/soft-fork-activation/ -- Michael Folkson Email: michaelfolkson@gmail.com Keybase: michaelfolkson PGP: 43ED C999 9F85 1D40 EAF4 9835 92D6 0159 214C FEE3