public inbox for bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Joel Joonatan Kaartinen <joel.kaartinen@gmail.com>
To: Matt Whitlock <bip@mattwhitlock.name>
Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposed alternatives to the 20MB step function
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 15:32:00 +0300	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAGKSKfW7fJB6n3B-OoyXOep7hAQqWGGDTiZCkpJ7vXxWRFgveA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAP63atbdFSw0rDeuwgtjsDYsXnKSHNN9=zedzip2MsZ0hSY59w@mail.gmail.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4599 bytes --]

Matt,

It seems you missed my suggestion about basing the maximum block size on
the bitcoin days destroyed in transactions that are included in the block.
I think it has potential for both scaling as well as keeping up a constant
fee pressure. If tuned properly, it should both stop spamming and increase
block size maximum when there are a lot of real transactions waiting for
inclusion.

- Joel

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 1:30 PM, Clément Elbaz <clem.ds@gmail.com> wrote:

> Matt : I think proposal #1 and #3 are a lot better than #2, and #1 is my
> favorite.
>
> I see two problems with proposal #2.
> The first problem with proposal #2 is that, as we see in democracies,
> there is often a mismatch between the people conscious vote and these same
> people behavior.
>
> Relying on an  intentional vote made consciously by miners by choosing a
> configuration value can lead to twisted results if their actual behavior
> doesn't correlate with their vote (eg, they all vote for a small block size
> because it is the default configuration of their software, and then they
> fill it completely all the time and everything crashes).
>
> The second problem with proposal #2 is that if Gavin and Mike are right,
> there is simply no time to gather a meaningful amount of votes over the
> coinbases, after the fork but before the Bitcoin scalability crash.
>
> I like proposal #1 because the "vote" is made using already available
> data. Also there is no possible mismatch between behavior and vote. As a
> miner you vote by choosing to create a big (or small) block, and your
> actions reflect your vote. It is simple and straightforward.
>
> My feelings on proposal #3 is it is a little bit mixing apples and
> oranges, but I may not seeing all the implications.
>
>
> Le ven. 8 mai 2015 à 09:21, Matt Whitlock <bip@mattwhitlock.name> a
> écrit :
>
>> Between all the flames on this list, several ideas were raised that did
>> not get much attention. I hereby resubmit these ideas for consideration and
>> discussion.
>>
>> - Perhaps the hard block size limit should be a function of the actual
>> block sizes over some trailing sampling period. For example, take the
>> median block size among the most recent 2016 blocks and multiply it by 1.5.
>> This allows Bitcoin to scale up gradually and organically, rather than
>> having human beings guessing at what is an appropriate limit.
>>
>> - Perhaps the hard block size limit should be determined by a vote of the
>> miners. Each miner could embed a desired block size limit in the coinbase
>> transactions of the blocks it publishes. The effective hard block size
>> limit would be that size having the greatest number of votes within a
>> sliding window of most recent blocks.
>>
>> - Perhaps the hard block size limit should be a function of block-chain
>> length, so that it can scale up smoothly rather than jumping immediately to
>> 20 MB. This function could be linear (anticipating a breakdown of Moore's
>> Law) or quadratic.
>>
>> I would be in support of any of the above, but I do not support Mike
>> Hearn's proposed jump to 20 MB. Hearn's proposal kicks the can down the
>> road without actually solving the problem, and it does so in a
>> controversial (step function) way.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
>> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5781 bytes --]

  reply	other threads:[~2015-05-08 12:32 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 69+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2015-05-08  7:20 [Bitcoin-development] Proposed alternatives to the 20MB step function Matt Whitlock
2015-05-08 10:15 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-08 10:30 ` Clément Elbaz
2015-05-08 12:32   ` Joel Joonatan Kaartinen [this message]
2015-05-08 12:48     ` Matt Whitlock
2015-05-08 13:24       ` Matt Whitlock
2015-05-08 12:48     ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-08 16:51     ` Peter Todd
2015-05-08 22:36       ` Joel Joonatan Kaartinen
2015-05-09 18:30         ` Peter Todd
2015-05-08 15:57 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-05-08 16:55 ` Bryan Bishop
2015-05-08 20:33 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-05-08 22:43   ` Aaron Voisine
2015-05-08 22:45     ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-05-08 23:15       ` Aaron Voisine
2015-05-08 23:58         ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-05-09  3:36   ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-05-09 11:58     ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-09 13:49       ` Tier Nolan
2015-05-10 17:36     ` Owen Gunden
2015-05-10 18:10       ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-05-10 21:21     ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-10 21:33       ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-05-10 21:56       ` Rob Golding
2015-05-13 10:43     ` Tier Nolan
2015-05-16  0:22       ` Rusty Russell
2015-05-16 11:09         ` Tier Nolan
2015-05-18  1:42           ` Rusty Russell
2015-05-19  8:59             ` Tier Nolan
2015-05-10 21:48   ` Thomas Voegtlin
2015-05-10 22:31     ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-05-10 23:11       ` Thomas Voegtlin
2015-05-28 15:53 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-28 17:05   ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-28 17:19     ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-28 17:34       ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-28 18:23         ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-29 11:26           ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-29 11:42             ` Tier Nolan
2015-05-29 11:57               ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-29 12:39                 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-29 14:00                   ` insecurity
2015-05-29 14:15                     ` Braun Brelin
2015-05-29 14:09                   ` Tier Nolan
2015-05-29 14:20                     ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-29 14:22                       ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-29 14:21                     ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-29 14:22                     ` Tier Nolan
2015-05-29 16:39                       ` [Bitcoin-development] Proposed alternatives to the 20MB stepfunction Raystonn .
2015-05-29 18:28                         ` Tier Nolan
2015-05-29 17:53                   ` [Bitcoin-development] Proposed alternatives to the 20MB step function Admin Istrator
2015-05-30  9:03                     ` Aaron Voisine
2015-06-01 11:30                       ` Ricardo Filipe
2015-06-01 11:46                         ` Marcel Jamin
2015-05-29 18:47                   ` Bryan Cheng
2015-05-30  1:36                     ` Cameron Garnham
2015-05-28 17:39       ` [Bitcoin-development] Proposed alternatives to the 20MB stepfunction Raystonn .
2015-05-28 17:59         ` Pieter Wuille
2015-05-28 18:21           ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-28 17:50       ` [Bitcoin-development] Proposed alternatives to the 20MB step function Peter Todd
2015-05-28 17:14   ` Thomas Voegtlin
2015-05-28 17:34   ` Pieter Wuille
2015-05-29 17:45   ` Aaron Voisine
2015-05-08 14:57 Steven Pine
2015-05-09  0:13 Raystonn
     [not found] <CAAjy6kDdB8uODpPcmS8h4eap8fke7Y2y773NHJZja8tB5mPk4Q@mail.gmail.com>
2015-05-28 16:30 ` Steven Pine
     [not found]   ` <CABsx9T03aNRC5DRbR06nNtsiBdJAcQsGAHvbCOe3pnuRpdvq5w@mail.gmail.com>
2015-05-28 18:25     ` Steven Pine
2015-05-28 18:31       ` Gavin Andresen

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=CAGKSKfW7fJB6n3B-OoyXOep7hAQqWGGDTiZCkpJ7vXxWRFgveA@mail.gmail.com \
    --to=joel.kaartinen@gmail.com \
    --cc=bip@mattwhitlock.name \
    --cc=bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox