From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 07:34:44 -0700 Received: from mail-ot1-f60.google.com ([209.85.210.60]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1tyAnD-00058e-0H for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Fri, 28 Mar 2025 07:34:43 -0700 Received: by mail-ot1-f60.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-72b846873b2sf1827186a34.2 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2025 07:34:43 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1743172477; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=AdYpkD1fhzNWjTMOEQfoERC3R2FxgCcWQLmmn7tpIWPBVZgE7OslvwvJq+0ZzXEHR2 qjDtA4WKP43HxjA53ZgiSPchykNI14COqmrl1Zi1WUzzjqInxs4qNedfP4wvG+4ZKPa+ 93G7LkshfjUCWoOiqUqa4x3Qancgeh2nSljYqNwHemcOAahoRoMT5QebFCkIGvAwoDz+ 5RtS3vrTjRxB0owMVUIECo/MOQtESFixybM2smnsAe8vq3N7Brz/SFs//vzYi+FmxFNV srCdxX4sJ7AVW6H6wr5LW/z0GVzZMKnUpQ1EmuNpu6btv2H4ezU6vNuQpYHcdDbR83cm v7uQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:sender:dkim-signature :dkim-signature; bh=usNdqGyZvuVoaID7LqHT7mccQgVK3ptTTUQQbJbvdNw=; fh=lwUb9xibc9bkcp2qAs3kAZuCljQjoJTKrVu/Vw7mC6Q=; b=aut+xm4qLL6SFoiWu6O7IskZxcLEpcHATiy9w/8uSQXCpr70etAyesHdw52zZnh0Ra sUfW4rSLf4mZeZXRNxwIe1x1EVH82DZnm/jOnRktvmKeBBs6XfpaKBDm2L+M9nlyNrLh QEFiaum6PGktxE59Rb7/FfyhjEJWp34hd8gITHjBggpYqNbGCefkS7FJkfTGVEYFZrdz tMc2xAuNjqEFq7Xml8QDN+sCixdl04pRWBL+n9PmdSe6ZzPEAqrWLnMj/+d3xUIfsVUp pE4HzH2pStmYS/OaTD9saGyPRHUYAt0Sx5byeiSO0qOmh6tXZ45dkNeA9Qig+OOSRZFa 4txw==; darn=gnusha.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b="f/n5Yq/o"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of stewart.chris1234@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1134 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=stewart.chris1234@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1743172477; x=1743777277; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=usNdqGyZvuVoaID7LqHT7mccQgVK3ptTTUQQbJbvdNw=; b=UlM1vsJn9BdWOwR/qpTc89Vd5DkGChjKfQPh08f+2WdXA436013I+/U5BENGU3EEkt 0e0HeajTMkvnOFNvstfkKGXW5F3AUTfZIma0HeI5XgzHf7YbWDuI6zcSfKgDOJizuDxy xClr4Aw0SYnyTw3pHbcg2yRYO4v0v3/u3GCf76y45gmf/0RILlzEXTqEOX4k5z1cfiot 8TfNmgwBxnQbZ9kt1fllrUFxL3zh43InnFncNcGfZHu7zy9Wp3pbZXinEqxJ2MtX0iLf MDezOdijuaTyu86/NpSAU2cebiev6i3hUAGOB9dEwDfzpbT/1j45lpm0ee9XG8p8pNFu K4pg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1743172477; x=1743777277; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=usNdqGyZvuVoaID7LqHT7mccQgVK3ptTTUQQbJbvdNw=; b=X6Lg2uzbwUPHTxqEyjOYv8uBV150qDVtOaUOz6pFtKZMAR0WEucy0LOfezg9K1crGr 41CCbsfI4FlpXCphMRMSXs5Co750xHmtt46ygvpu91JDlzCrWQbOThXSDIIQCPpb6tR2 B+fUl69S6boim/nlC2/uvKdCITK+1ups0lvBZ6jOFzJsQiNtHTDc0w/IOMbMDjayOzRy rz5ggCJsTCT4lp5NtFqBumMi5HWNDNPDjtoRX4yz72uInu/yT5GPMqqKzxyyaoHQ4ELl lgpKxOMoOJOuJuw6i779EARp6bXlfOL2T8iK1Pgo1NwG3VyQ24+kyyAkAnzyHlgOQ9wM FFDw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1743172477; x=1743777277; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=usNdqGyZvuVoaID7LqHT7mccQgVK3ptTTUQQbJbvdNw=; b=St+EOR07h0i7VmazksscETE2EpWpBjYKhpLf1Z8b6b9+hD6jAly5nfSkqDj6zxXHTT c1obYqWaONxXE8/d/ZInSCDg1W7hHOyOGymgrjJ/L3pHjGYcpR4V/wNr/RQQfvl5qBTQ iQEcjeDt5DVjyDE4c6MqbwswCUdur9vm9EBaC42oHJPHIck6QwieJ4W2trjP5D3/2h3e rX4//Hs1W/gM2VpPhTNYYcTuKHiKokmpEQAq9UAGKhObPL/FPXKciLwC4bgkPexCFFQO z4Un6MkWZnbolLZPV3jDYcDhE/AxKr696CjfVdQZSGZOKpGfWbe7DYUETWm1vuBqjFYh jlqQ== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCXz4dHxmR+XWvUohhgr+0Qvc5wkU2yo0dk9AsrDI6SIsawQMuZsGkO5mhW1ay2mboY3gFZf/0NIWsed@gnusha.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw9dX5bKImsJW5IGQy/kp+WwvnQH5A+m/EVvmTCQjyKfjdiuLHP UCCUCc8n5jFtHScFjsHCLKwsihvDQx/3vtEA2RpL1ZnfXFFEjzgf X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHfF4gErUyfXYgLXRdM4Bp6aHLfViKQtt587bW8alWroRJ18OfwybI/NTpWzP7IpE8LdGvsWA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:6685:b0:727:3b06:112 with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-72c4c98005cmr5355611a34.14.1743172477083; Fri, 28 Mar 2025 07:34:37 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=ARLLPALaH+LgRB/ioVzuxuhp5CH1+o/pY11uwTGbpD4UGQr4qw== Received: by 2002:a05:6870:e389:b0:2c2:2ed7:fb78 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2c846b2db2als183372fac.0.-pod-prod-01-us; Fri, 28 Mar 2025 07:34:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:6a89:b0:3f6:729c:810 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3fefa4d66c5mr4946168b6e.4.1743172473639; Fri, 28 Mar 2025 07:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:6808:428b:b0:3fa:da36:efcd with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3feefb746c5msb6e; Fri, 28 Mar 2025 04:02:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:6f89:b0:3f9:4bab:da6 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3fefa5115c0mr4536522b6e.15.1743159778657; Fri, 28 Mar 2025 04:02:58 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1743159778; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=dJtlu3tX2uKsLBw+7w7g8wJ2QgyaYi+o1yqyKkOS6NEVNmkrZqtkLcypMLsXaS6hF/ 3sEObeE9B91LxwD1rXxjhyZtnQ0o1xPNQt+Gc5O891PzhC++EdpnSXXDmWHHNQi5l64X oNavpm8LTpEFHDos1R0ZqjbDcKvTy/c1Hit5Uj9wwkIk0uLFAHXUnUpFcdSQG+jJJnXx k8g5ldNdeJM3M4RO4dWgxfhXr7nU9ArjxMvRxfjl3Wu5HI+KOeVRT6MWhEpqvEnnU21n jQzVj0tiDEBdlvHGDgTUfxMP9YJPKbar3Bo86zDH1QQ8j8QfK8+W7BDmCpbzP+9az08+ eIOg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:dkim-signature; bh=lEsFQ1GeuL/C4+7pY/BUmcFVzeP8PMxdYKZUxwDk5RE=; fh=O/ornqcoA7r9FeoVIqy0bzOi0AZDoaGld/T7oI+UKaQ=; b=RE8CMZcA13I5rpFBHsI4++A2st2PuP+/uv6/RCPNg+dBMFaEXG8elgMAoBbYigNf+n 1mQKdVlEsUQcnJit0K3XIWeFXuA35mBF8Ut5okakF89FlMpKDTPw9tIHo6040fvn2xJ9 cPxbYvcgC9gr9AvGCvNKnI4rAIJvaEJBXMG1gWPQqC0VpEHwPylL9TGlwb06fFGWf1Cn pNde6j2Z3nAnRCeIvRoIBsjhxJYzCEySyUhtliClpuWUGXklyxvNJYAKvnasGC6gEiN1 BCz/KiugurUFwIbPQ1hywFBF2kmAl4r98UDBKUGwW8ciLz+6JipY+s9HT2L6YFmOU/xC h77w==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b="f/n5Yq/o"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of stewart.chris1234@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1134 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=stewart.chris1234@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Received: from mail-yw1-x1134.google.com (mail-yw1-x1134.google.com. [2607:f8b0:4864:20::1134]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5614622812f47-3ff05267707si56328b6e.3.2025.03.28.04.02.58 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Mar 2025 04:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of stewart.chris1234@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1134 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1134; Received: by mail-yw1-x1134.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-6ff37565232so18337417b3.3 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2025 04:02:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctQp+wVD+mi1qKio/7j9J41sFfUhuoraPTx6XO9aztWr1tlqLxrFIz34TO8RwL han6vcNs87+LZHiiHK38nEhnh8Xwi3RxO0/J58G8emycoo1qPBI5biGIIY1W6TOiGzSZoCgO/Jx H/DB0rxjF+ARv9kYSO55LrskITYdg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:fc5:b0:6fd:3fd0:6f2f with SMTP id 00721157ae682-70225092ff9mr84609457b3.26.1743159777871; Fri, 28 Mar 2025 04:02:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <17A67D4A-3EF4-4676-8356-B1DE6B0C2D8D@sprovoost.nl> In-Reply-To: <17A67D4A-3EF4-4676-8356-B1DE6B0C2D8D@sprovoost.nl> From: Chris Stewart Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 06:02:46 -0500 X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1JoE2YZ-BgeVFcmZn3mW1MoaMN9nmPiWgpj8e6C1EWEBG314q6dg8z--Lrg Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Consensus Cleanup BIP draft To: Sjors Provoost Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List , jeremy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000058d296063165034a" X-Original-Sender: stewart.chris1234@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b="f/n5Yq/o"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of stewart.chris1234@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1134 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=stewart.chris1234@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --00000000000058d296063165034a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sjors, An example is any segwit transaction that 1 input 1 output that pays to a 2 byte witness program. Since witness data doesn't count towards the 64 byte limit, the witness could be of arbitrary size. This was pointed out by garlonicon on delvingbitcoin. This type of witness program is used for pay-to-anchor outputs currently - although I don't believe anchor outputs make sense in a 1 input 1 output transaction? The author of pay to anchor outputs is aware of this issue , but I haven't heard of any further updates since his post on delving. -Chris On Fri, Mar 28, 2025 at 4:25=E2=80=AFAM Sjors Provoost = wrote: > > > Op 27 mrt 2025, om 21:45 heeft jeremy het > volgende geschreven: > > > > I'm also personally strongly against removing 64-byte transactions. It'= s > a wart in how transactions work, and future upgrades (especially around t= x > programmability) might integrate very poorly with this kind of edge > condition. > > Do you have an example in mind where a 64-byte transaction could appear i= n > such a system? > > Given the limited space, in particular no room for a public key or > signature, I could imagine a burn or anyone-can-spend clause. Those don't > have to be exactly 64 bytes. Even if 64 byte transactions are generated b= y > accident, I believe they can be tweaked after the fact (though that claim > could use more scrutiny): > > https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/q/125971/4948 > > If we grant that any smart contract system has to engineer around this > "ward", we should also consider how much engineering effort is saved in > other smart contract systems by having simpler SPV proofs. > > Imo the real ward is the originally broken Merkle tree design. That has > required a bunch of engineering all over the place to compensate. Afaik i= t > can only be truly fixed with a hard fork. This seems to be as good as it > gets with a soft fork. > > - Sjors > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/17A67D4A-3EF4-4676-8356-B1DE= 6B0C2D8D%40sprovoost.nl > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAGL6%2BmE8JQGJErgJH03sz8Nzo%2Bwkgx74jgFWp7hFT0MuHiPg_g%40mail.gmail.com. --00000000000058d296063165034a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Sjors,

An example is any = segwit transaction that 1 input 1 output that pays to a 2 byte witness prog= ram. Since witness data doesn't count towards the 64 byte limit, the wi= tness could be of arbitrary size. This was pointed= out by garlonicon on delvingb= itcoin. This type of witness program is used for pay-to-anchor outputs curr= ently - although I don't believe anchor outputs make sense in a 1 input= 1 output transaction? The author of pay to anchor outputs is aware of this issue, but I haven't heard of any further= updates since his post on delving.

-Chris

On Fri, Mar 28, 2025 at= 4:25=E2=80=AFAM Sjors Provoost <s= jors@sprovoost.nl> wrote:

> Op 27 mrt 2025, om 21:45 heeft jeremy <jeremy.l.rubin@gmail.com> het volg= ende geschreven:
>
> I'm also personally strongly against removing 64-byte transactions= . It's a wart in how transactions work, and future upgrades (especially= around tx programmability) might integrate very poorly with this kind of e= dge condition.

Do you have an example in mind where a 64-byte transaction could appear in = such a system?

Given the limited space, in particular no room for a public key or signatur= e, I could imagine a burn or anyone-can-spend clause. Those don't have = to be exactly 64 bytes. Even if 64 byte transactions are generated by accid= ent, I believe they can be tweaked after the fact (though that claim could = use more scrutiny):

https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/q/125971/4948
If we grant that any smart contract system has to engineer around this &quo= t;ward", we should also consider how much engineering effort is saved = in other smart contract systems by having simpler SPV proofs.

Imo the real ward is the originally broken Merkle tree design. That has req= uired a bunch of engineering all over the place to compensate. Afaik it can= only be truly fixed with a hard fork. This seems to be as good as it gets = with a soft fork.

- Sjors

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/17A6= 7D4A-3EF4-4676-8356-B1DE6B0C2D8D%40sprovoost.nl.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoind= ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/= d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAGL6%2BmE8JQGJErgJH03sz8Nzo%2Bwkgx74jgFWp7hFT0MuHiPg_g%= 40mail.gmail.com.
--00000000000058d296063165034a--