public inbox for bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Dave Scotese <dscotese@litmocracy.com>
To: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Fwd: Block size following technological growth
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 09:54:04 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAGLBAhecTf1M0ju5dK50e_MZfo=meL9EG2KMBbne=64Q6C7rDw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CALqxMTFJg8CzNRPM92opDpxScvWeX7yXYw4q8zP9_cqXQxihFw@mail.gmail.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3719 bytes --]

Bitcoin is an irreversible payment system.  When you pay someone using its
main selling point, which is removing the need for physical presence, you
are trusting that person.  Bitcoin doesn't obviate trust.  It obviates
authority.  Centralization of trust is what creates the authority that we
all recognize as bad for our species.  It does this by making the
authority's use of coercion acceptable.

Bitcoin removes the need for authority, not trust.  It replaces trust in a
single body with trust in a majority.  We want that majority to be healthy
and varied (as opposed to largely co-opted by some authority). The
replacement has two effects.  1) It is very difficult for any single body
to become the (coercive) authority that everyone has to trust (like central
banks). 2) It is very easy for a person to find a different single body to
trust if they don't like the one they are trusting now - or even stop
trusting one body and trust the majority instead, relying on #1 for
protection, and taking on the responsibility of running a full node.

The philosophical foundation of a thing is ultimately the basis of its
value, so I thought it useful to point out the distinction between
authority and trust in the bitcoin ecosystem.  I welcome disagreements with
my philosophical position, as that is how I learn.

Dave.

On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:53 PM, Adam Back via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> On 7 August 2015 at 22:35, Thomas Zander via bitcoin-dev
> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> > the need an individual has for running a node is a completely different
> concept than the
> > need for nodes to exist.  And, really, you are describing miners, not
> nodes.
>
> It's not as simple as trusting miners, Bitcoin security needs some
> reasonable portion of economic interest to be validating their receipt
> of coins against a full node they run.
>
> I do it myself because I dont want to lose money, as do many power
> users.  Most bitcoin ecosystem companies do it.  You dont have to run
> it all the time, just sync it when you want to check your own coin
> receipt with higher assurance.
>
> > As we concluded in our previous email, the need to run a node is
> inversely
> > proportional to the ability (or willingness) to trust others.
>
> Even if you are willing to trust others, trusting miners or random
> full nodes would be unsafe if not for the reasonable portion of
> economic interest validating their own received coins.  That holds
> miners honest, otherwise they could more easily present fake
> information to SPV users.
>
> > And lets face it, practically everyone trusts others with their money
> today.
>
> Bitcoin's very reason for existence is to avoid that need.  For people
> fully happy to trust others with their money, Bitcoin may not be as
> interesting to them.
>
> >> If the impact of the system goes u[p], so should the - joint -
> incentives to
> >> keep it secure. And I think we're (slowly) failing at that.
> >
> > That is your opinion.
>
> What Pieter said is an accurate summary and non-controversial.
>
> Adam
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>



-- 
I like to provide some work at no charge to prove my value. Do you need a
techie?
I own Litmocracy <http://www.litmocracy.com> and Meme Racing
<http://www.memeracing.net> (in alpha).
I'm the webmaster for The Voluntaryist <http://www.voluntaryist.com> which
now accepts Bitcoin.
I also code for The Dollar Vigilante <http://dollarvigilante.com/>.
"He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules" - Satoshi
Nakamoto

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4865 bytes --]

  reply	other threads:[~2015-08-08 16:54 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 111+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2015-07-30 14:25 [bitcoin-dev] Block size following technological growth Pieter Wuille
2015-07-30 15:04 ` Greg Sanders
2015-07-30 15:12 ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-30 16:23   ` Jameson Lopp
2015-07-30 16:36     ` Bryan Bishop
2015-07-30 16:43       ` Jameson Lopp
2015-07-30 16:36   ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-07-30 17:51     ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-30 18:00       ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-30 16:56   ` Gary Mulder
2015-07-30 17:13     ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-07-30 16:20 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-07-30 16:41   ` Suhas Daftuar
2015-07-30 16:48   ` Adam Back
2015-07-30 16:49   ` Pieter Wuille
2015-07-31 10:16     ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-31 11:43       ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-07-31 11:51       ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-31 12:15         ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-31 13:07           ` Marcel Jamin
2015-07-31 14:33           ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-31 14:58             ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-31 15:28               ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-07-31 20:09               ` Elliot Olds
2015-08-04 10:35               ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-04 11:04                 ` Hector Chu
2015-08-04 11:27                   ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-04 11:34                     ` Hector Chu
2015-08-04 12:10                       ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-08-04 13:13                       ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-04 13:28                         ` Hector Chu
2015-08-04 13:42                           ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-08-04 17:59                           ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-04 13:12                     ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-04 13:54                       ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-04 14:30                       ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-08-04 14:43                         ` [bitcoin-dev] Fwd: " Venzen Khaosan
2015-08-04 14:45                       ` [bitcoin-dev] " Alex Morcos
2015-08-05  8:14                       ` Gareth Williams
2015-08-04 11:59                   ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-04 12:19                     ` Hector Chu
2015-08-04 13:34                       ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-08-04 13:37                       ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-05  7:29                     ` Elliot Olds
2015-08-06  1:26                       ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-06 13:40                         ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-06 14:06                           ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-06 14:21                             ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-06 14:53                               ` Pieter Wuille
     [not found]                                 ` <CABsx9T0B2bZrFHxYR_QNwBmxskQx31zt=QE5BJAYjcOo7wbo3A@mail.gmail.com>
2015-08-06 15:24                                   ` [bitcoin-dev] Fwd: " Gavin Andresen
2015-08-06 15:26                                     ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-06 18:43                                       ` Michael Naber
2015-08-06 18:52                                         ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-07 16:06                                           ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-07 16:30                                             ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-07 17:00                                               ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-07 17:09                                                 ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-07 21:35                                                   ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-07 22:53                                                     ` Adam Back
2015-08-08 16:54                                                       ` Dave Scotese [this message]
2015-08-07 17:50                                               ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-07 18:05                                                 ` Jameson Lopp
2015-08-07 18:10                                                 ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-07 21:43                                                   ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-07 22:00                                                   ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-06 16:19                                 ` [bitcoin-dev] " Tom Harding
2015-08-06 21:56                               ` Peter Todd
2015-08-06 15:25                           ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-06 16:03                             ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-06 16:11                               ` Mike Hearn
2015-08-06 17:15                               ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-06 19:42                                 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-06 20:01                                   ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-06 21:51                                   ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-06 23:09                         ` Elliot Olds
2015-08-10 19:28                           ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-11  5:48                             ` Elliot Olds
2015-08-09 18:46                   ` [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is Tom Harding
2015-08-09 18:54                     ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-08-09 20:14                       ` Hector Chu
     [not found]                         ` <CAOG=w-s9KsaPwveSpgdvsVTWUDV77YY7Em7NZGyxSQMMCccYSg@mail.gmail.com>
2015-08-09 20:48                           ` Hector Chu
2015-08-10  4:48                             ` Joseph Poon
2015-08-10 17:03                         ` odinn
2015-08-10 17:14                           ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-10 17:45                             ` odinn
2015-08-09 21:27                       ` Tom Harding
2015-08-09 21:40                         ` Chris Pacia
2015-08-09 21:45                         ` Hector Chu
2015-08-09 21:57                           ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-09 22:03                             ` Hector Chu
2015-08-09 22:36                               ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-10  1:52                           ` Tom Harding
2015-08-10  3:31                             ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-09 22:06                         ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-09 22:09                           ` Hector Chu
2015-08-09 22:27                             ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-09 22:30                               ` Hector Chu
2015-08-09 22:44                             ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-09 22:51                               ` Btc Drak
2015-08-10  8:27                                 ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-10  8:36                                   ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-10  4:39                               ` Joseph Poon
2015-08-10 21:02                               ` Anthony Towns
2015-08-10 21:19                                 ` Anthony Towns
2015-08-10 21:43                                   ` Adam Back
2015-08-11  9:01                                     ` Hector Chu
2015-08-11 17:17                                       ` Simon Liu
2015-07-31 14:52           ` [bitcoin-dev] Block size following technological growth Bryan Bishop
2015-07-30 17:46   ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-02 22:35   ` Anthony Towns
2015-07-30 20:20 ` Thomas Zander

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to='CAGLBAhecTf1M0ju5dK50e_MZfo=meL9EG2KMBbne=64Q6C7rDw@mail.gmail.com' \
    --to=dscotese@litmocracy.com \
    --cc=bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox