From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2C6EEE4 for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 20:07:50 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-ot1-f41.google.com (mail-ot1-f41.google.com [209.85.210.41]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8D306C5 for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 20:07:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ot1-f41.google.com with SMTP id g18so6584695otj.11 for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 13:07:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=H+8q1EiMFEDvbKddQXIVGCxAjJu41HAm2k6U1hYL5tU=; b=erS0D09CnXn79USHad29gLjTdbuWyC5XBI8k4o2hRWqfYdBJCqZWgHy9mhtGoezZbv 6jFMHVc25smqlNqGo58TLTxoO5BN91dTZj6LlISnW9P99hgSkqwgw6YM/iSTF5KyMMLV 5hiIVzpGNna+vz3IGJthjZxN31dYASYckZCd5LE9Ay/6yEePuWvdyXx3FmjW8nvSpUJa e/ZFy6n9FSeh40QvNXa/gXKq2n/tan4Je1n5LgPFyievJIao4FdigVqBb1HZVNR5xBDB sAXeUUq+SIT7n2NlZcInwd22cLYILvtEi0G96r5hociBytKk+UJ5EELVxhiukkfuP4Mz yu9w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=H+8q1EiMFEDvbKddQXIVGCxAjJu41HAm2k6U1hYL5tU=; b=Ecyv5rg4g33p7+VnZzKH29G3APAIlOoEI/XgNDvhWgfinT1qfI7dVH6jZFhqR5Soac ARlfVN7+KKHH9OQFDCvltdpZLZzduF3kAB/ZIivuAQ9KwgdQLEBTyZClMk3CmgRDYgHa /pOSDBJMIdyhA95uthg6KdRblsyDwo99TSQqftk9pYMGmR7gBCtMnE6djNNeuvBCkELx S+0HadQjA12Jzt/51ZRCANqJjX8n0NReNhfEy77FYoWhzLM0FjRa/qcaH0Yy6XO1fuNM HzzdLp7aBz/P1CT9+AZI+MjcD46OsivnmWbTcbOvcFQtwcAQIJwc/xi4H/Ss8Ebhr5Sd F7cw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWPrwqIMynQ8lK3AvWKxPW0yT6iixmPAzlsQFHnetOYEcYRLCcc xuVYXS88IWR04WXlbuQNdBIpy6Nk6UzBGT8V7yAGXv2I X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx0xpZZWTIery6Gc6c2NJr5inw5IHICsfyLCnRqkPIvC1q5OCiSBvXy8VfzFznckRkf6HT/KJvOTOwfNvozmYI= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:d17:: with SMTP id 23mr24437513oti.122.1558642068713; Thu, 23 May 2019 13:07:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <42F53D61-BAAE-464F-BB0D-4D0CDC554D9A@gmail.com> <09724852-6971-4E5A-AAB5-3FBAEEA1D995@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Nathan Cook Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 23:07:30 +0300 Message-ID: To: Tamas Blummer Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d675da058993a2df" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 23 May 2019 20:08:34 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] OP_DIFFICULTY to enable difficulty hedges (bets) without an oracle and 3rd party. X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 20:07:50 -0000 --000000000000d675da058993a2df Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You're right, I didn't remember the whole procedure. You provide the 80-byte header in the spend script, duplicate it on the stack, hash it, and compare to what OP_CHECKBLOCKATHEIGHT gives you. Then you do bit masking on the header with OP_AND to extract the difficulty. You can compare two compressed difficulties directly by using more bit masking to separate the exponent and mantissa. On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 22:54, Tamas Blummer wrote= : > Block hash can suggest much higher difficulty than what is in effect, so > OP_CHECKBLOCKATHEIGHT would not work to decide if difficulty is above the > level of the bet. > > > On May 23, 2019, at 21:45, Tamas Blummer > wrote: > > > > I see. The uncompressing needs to be done either to compare. How are > chances for that BIP? > > > > This BIP would be explicitly offering risk managment of miners biggest > risk. > > Doing so without relying on external markets or oracle, self cointained > would be an impressive and adequate feature. > > > > Tamas Blummer > > > >> On May 23, 2019, at 21:21, Nathan Cook wrote: > >> > >> It's true that it fetches the block hash; the idea is to compare the > block hash's numeric value to the desired (uncompressed) difficulty > directly, using a 256-bit version of OP_LESSTHAN. > >> > >> Nathan Cook > >> > >> > >> On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 22:18, Tamas Blummer > wrote: > >> That opcode would not help as it fetches block hash and not the conten= t > of the header. > >> > >>> On May 23, 2019, at 21:05, Nathan Cook wrote: > >>> > >>> You can get the same effect with OP_CHECKBLOCKATHEIGHT as proposed by > Luke Dashjr ( > https://github.com/luke-jr/bips/blob/bip-cbah/bip-cbah.mediawiki) if you > also re-enable/extend certain opcodes like OP_AND and OP_LESSTHAN. See > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-September/01= 3149.html > and the ensuing thread. > >>> > >>> Nathan Cook > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 21:33, Tamas Blummer via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > >>> Difficulty change has profound impact on miner=E2=80=99s production t= hereby > introduce the biggest risk while considering an investment. > >>> Commodity markets offer futures and options to hedge risks on > traditional trading venues. Some might soon list difficulty futures. > >>> > >>> I think we could do much better than them natively within Bitcoin. > >>> > >>> A better solution could be a transaction that uses nLocktime > denominated in block height, such that it is valid after the difficulty > adjusted block in the future. > >>> A new OP_DIFFICULTY opcode would put onto stack the value of > difficulty for the block the transaction is included into. > >>> The output script may then decide comparing that value with a strike > which key can spend it. > >>> The input of the transaction would be a multi-sig escrow of those who > entered the bet. > >>> The winner would broadcast. > >>> > >>> Once signed by both the transaction would not carry any counterparty > risk and would not need an oracle to settle according to the bet. > >>> > >>> I plan to draft a BIP for this as I think this opcode would serve > significant economic interest of Bitcoin economy, and is compatible with > Bitcoin=E2=80=99s aim not to introduce 3rd party to do so. > >>> > >>> Do you see a fault in this proposal or want to contribute? > >>> > >>> Tamas Blummer > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> bitcoin-dev mailing list > >>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > >> > > > > --000000000000d675da058993a2df Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You're right, I didn't remember t= he whole procedure. You provide the 80-byte header in the spend script, dup= licate it on the stack, hash it, and compare to what OP_CHECKBLOCKATHEIGHT = gives you.=C2=A0Then you do bit masking on the header with OP_AND to extrac= t the difficulty. You can compare two compressed difficulties directly by u= sing more bit masking to separate the exponent and mantissa.

=
On T= hu, 23 May 2019 at 22:54, Tamas Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail.com> wrote:
Block hash can suggest much higher diffi= culty than what is in effect, so OP_CHECKBLOCKATHEIGHT would not work to de= cide if difficulty is above the level of the bet.

> On May 23, 2019, at 21:45, Tamas Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail.com> wrote:<= br> >
> I see. The uncompressing needs to be done either to compare. How are c= hances for that BIP?
>
> This BIP would be explicitly offering risk managment of miners biggest= risk.
> Doing so without relying on external markets or oracle, self cointaine= d would be an impressive and adequate feature.
>
> Tamas Blummer
>
>> On May 23, 2019, at 21:21, Nathan Cook <nathan.cook@gmail.com> wrote: >>
>> It's true that it fetches the block hash; the idea is to compa= re the block hash's numeric value to the desired (uncompressed) difficu= lty directly, using a 256-bit version of OP_LESSTHAN.
>>
>> Nathan Cook
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 22:18, Tamas Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail.com> = wrote:
>> That opcode would not help as it fetches block hash and not the co= ntent of the header.
>>
>>> On May 23, 2019, at 21:05, Nathan Cook <nathan.cook@gmail.com> wrote= :
>>>
>>> You can get the same effect with OP_CHECKBLOCKATHEIGHT as prop= osed by Luke Dashjr (https://github.= com/luke-jr/bips/blob/bip-cbah/bip-cbah.mediawiki) if you also re-enabl= e/extend certain opcodes like OP_AND and OP_LESSTHAN. See https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/p= ipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-September/013149.html and the ensuing thread.=
>>>
>>> Nathan Cook
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 21:33, Tamas Blummer via bitcoin-dev &l= t;bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>> Difficulty change has profound impact on miner=E2=80=99s produ= ction thereby introduce the biggest risk while considering an investment. >>> Commodity markets offer futures and options to hedge risks on = traditional trading venues. Some might soon list difficulty futures.
>>>
>>> I think we could do much better than them natively within Bitc= oin.
>>>
>>> A better solution could be a transaction that uses nLocktime d= enominated in block height, such that it is valid after the difficulty adju= sted block in the future.
>>> A new OP_DIFFICULTY opcode would put onto stack the value of d= ifficulty for the block the transaction is included into.
>>> The output script may then decide comparing that value with a = strike which key can spend it.
>>> The input of the transaction would be a multi-sig escrow of th= ose who entered the bet.
>>> The winner would broadcast.
>>>
>>> Once signed by both the transaction would not carry any counte= rparty risk and would not need an oracle to settle according to the bet. >>>
>>> I plan to draft a BIP for this as I think this opcode would se= rve significant economic interest of Bitcoin economy, and is compatible wit= h Bitcoin=E2=80=99s aim not to introduce 3rd party to do so.
>>>
>>> Do you see a fault in this proposal or want to contribute?
>>>
>>> Tamas Blummer
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfounda= tion.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>

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